What survivability rate can one expect on small cells without treatments?

[DRUR]

Dusting with sugar is a good solution to knock down the varroa without the use of any chemicals. To get a real good knock down, as already stated, you would need to do it once every 5-7 days for 3-4 weeks.

There are 3 pages on this site with info on sugar dusting.
http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/...ask=view&id=69

Also, Randy Oliver describes what he calls a One-Two punch on varroa that includes sugar dusting and drone trapping.

Thanks for the site. I haven't read it "All" yet but will provide me with good information If/when I decide I have destructor problem.

Danny

[tecumseh]

gmcharlie writes:
Mite load is also expotential, so breaking the cycle severly reduces the build be fall.. not teh be all end all, but a good harmless patch.

tecumseh:
I absolutely agree here. It is why I 'think' drone scraping at a certain time in the spring or prior to any serious splitting is a definite plus.

drurs writes:
How much of the loss/success rate can be attributed to small cells and how much can be attributed to the hygienics of the bees?

tecumseh:
to pursue the hygenic route you need to concern your self with both sides of the mating equation. that is, the evidence suggest that the queen mother and drone mother hives need to both be hygenic.

[gmcharlie]

Drone scraping? interesting thought, can you explain? I normaly cut out drone cells. scraping... Hmmmm

[DRUR]

One of the test procedures I was going to do was to statistically examine a portion of the drones, since they are more inclined to attack by mites, and determine mite infestation. Any, suggestions regarding this? I will only be getting my drone frames this week so it will be a while before this test is ready.

Danny

[KQ6AR]

The way I saw it done, was using a capings scraping fork to remove drone brood & visually examine.
I have a photo but there's not an option to use it here. I'll post it in the photo area.

Ok here's the post
http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...351#post433351

[tecumseh]

gmcharlie writes:
Drone scraping? interesting thought, can you explain? I normaly cut out drone cells. scraping... Hmmmm


tecumseh:
I use a capping scratcher (I think a fork would work as well) and do every hive in the EARLY spring that I am not using as 'drone mother hives'. it is a lot of work since this require that I go thru every box and every frame. I don't think it so much 'cures' the mite problem as much as it interrupts them at that point in their growth curve (sigmoid) where they are increasing at an increasing rate (if you follow along with the math/economic justification thingee). as a physical approach to reducing mite load it was a method that was first suggest (noted by me) in some old bee magazines as 'a strategy' employed in europe prior to the varroa's arrival here.

danny writes:
One of the test procedures I was going to do was to statistically examine a portion of the drones, since they are more inclined to attack by mites, and determine mite infestation. Any, suggestions regarding this?

tecumseh:
I am not certain how you might do this statistically and maintain anything that looked like an accurate and reliable predicator????

I randomly (here and there) test for mites by plucking sealed drone larvae (also not my idea but suggest here by another beesource beek by the screen name of Joel). this approach has largely taken the place of 'the sugar roll method' as a means of testing for varroa. following along with his suggestion a varroa here or there can be overlooked... as the number of varroa increases on say a sample of ten you need to more alarmed... multiple varroa on a single drone should definitely raise a red flag.

via my experience with plucking drone larvae as a sampling method it appears to me that light or initiial infestations of varroa tend to be patchy or clustered.

[gmcharlie]

tecumseh, Are you removing the drones or just ripping off the heads and letting the hive clean them up??

Just once or???

[DRUR]

While checking the bees today, My son spotted a varroa destrutor on one of the bees. It was on the back just above and between the wings. This bee was much larger than most of the rest in the colony and he thinks it was one still alive before regression, but I don't think so; but still it was noticibly larger that the rest.

Danny

[gmcharlie]

is it a drone????

[DRUR]

No, and I received the business end when I removed it from the frame.


Danny

[gmcharlie]

now that made me laugh.......

small cell is not the end all answer for mites... As I mentioned some think its actually no help whatsoever.......( i don't have an opinion)

A few mites are normal this time of year... look for deformed wings and non fliers, and do a sugar roll mite check to see if your at problematic levels....


I don't have a tick problem, but walking in the woods will give me a few until I get them cleaned up.....me and teh dog.....

[Michael Bush]

>small cell is not the end all answer for mites...

That's pretty much all I've done and all I'm doing and I have no Varroa issues at all. I have trouble finding any.

[DRUR]

At this point I won't be doing anything different. Colony has been closely examined by eye, bye camera, and bye checking the tray, without any further evidence of mites. I didn't expect to be mite free, just to have a survivable rate. Also, if this queen can't survive without treatment, as far as I am concerned, she becomes extinct. I am a survivalist , and I want my bees to be also.

Danny

[gmcharlie]

>small cell is not the end all answer for mites...

That's pretty much all I've done and all I'm doing and I have no Varroa issues at all. I have trouble finding any.

very interesting......... did you also select certian queens?? or use some special stock??

Everthing I have studied shows mixed results with only small cell as the only control... Not trying to be (not sure of the right word) pessimistic.....

I don't have much of a mite issue in most of my hives either.... and until this year, no real small cell or natrual....

I am not sure at this point I can say I even have small cell, as I have switched to natrual cell size but have not as of yet actually started measuring the results.....

all my original queens were from survivor stock breed fro mite restiance..... this year I added some of Tom Glens queens, I haven't bred for them yet as I haven't fully evaualted them yet for performance...

I guess my question for you Michael do you belive if you took a hive/queen who was not particulary hygenic for mites and put them/her in small cell would you expect to see a dramitic improvment in mite restiance???

[DRUR]

very interesting......... did you also select certian queens?? or use some special stock??

Everthing I have studied shows mixed results with only small cell as the only control... Not trying to be (not sure of the right word) pessimistic.....

I started out this year with 2 colonies (two deeps) bought about March 17. I got home without a queen in 1, and the other colony was so aggressive I am sure they were AHB.

I split the AHB but couln't find the queen the first go round. I purchased 3 Minnesota Hygienic Queens $12.00 ea. I lost one in the colony with the AHB queen. I raised a queen from my MHQ and split the first colony that the queen was killed during transport. All of these MHQ have been excellent queens. Second go round on the AHB, I found the queen and requeened with a Bweaver queen (she has over taken all others and is definitely my best queen at this point), she is also an excellent queen.

I also caught a feral swarm, which was already regressed.

The MHQ that I raised is the only one not regressed to small cells at this point and she has 8 of 10 frames of solid brood. She is fixing to get pushed down on small cells and kept there with a queen excluder. I have discovered (9-10) bees with mites in this colony, and I look diligently, have taken pictures of every frame, downloaded on the computer and carefully examined every bee. Also, I have deligently checked my oil trays and have found 8-10 mites and I examine these with a magnifying glass.

The one I found today is the only one I have found in my 4 regressed colonies and I have used to above procedures to check them. I am also wondering if the one I found may not have drifted from my non regressed colony.

Danny

[DRUR]

I guess my question for you Michael do you belive if you took a hive/queen who was not particulary hygenic for mites and put them/her in small cell would you expect to see a dramitic improvment in mite restiance???

Charlie, you just hit the nail square on the center of the head. This is the exact reason I started this thread, to try to determine how much of the survivability would be related to small cells vs. queens bred for hygienic behaviour. Obviously it is a combination of both, but I wonder what the percentage would be.

Danny

[gmcharlie]

http://www.bwrangler.com/ncom.htm



very intersting data. I have not found his results on viabilty and small cell, I emaild him for that.



Michael, what is the cause of the loss (reported) of so many hives during regression????

[DRUR]

Bud Thanks so much for responding to my thread. Will you answer a few questions for me?

1. Are you a commercial beekeeper and if so about how many colonies do you have?

2. From your answer I assume you treat with the standard treatment methods (Apistand and Checkmite), is this correct?

3. If not do you use only IPM, such as drone frames, sbb, or others and if so can you give a description of your system?

4. How much does it cost to treat a colony that needs treatments per year?

5. What are your losses (per centage) with these treatments?

6. What would your losses per year be without treatments (in your opinion)?

7. In your opinion do you think small cells hurts the bees, and/or are bees less productive/healthy due to their smaller size?

8. If so what do you base this upon?

9. Do you think that Michael Bush and others like him are just flat out lying about their success, and if so why?

Your time in responding will truly be greatly appreciated.

Also, I am the one who started this thread, and based upon my reading on small cell successes I chosen to get back into beekeeping, after about 25 year abscence, and eventually hope to provide for myself and my family from this new venture.

Danny

[gmcharlie]

I would have to disagree with most of these statements [by Bud Dingler before they were deleted]..... I fully belive most of the small cell proponents do the research and have data to support their thoughts, and I definatly trust the observations........

I may not totally agree (to be determined) but I hardly disagree on any scale. My questions are based on a desire to learn more..... I AM an engineer and like DATA more than any scientist....... I also realize that the priciples of the data collection are more important than the results....

After all you can test that worms are teh best fish bait in the world, but if you only fish with worms then your data is skewed.

My questions are based on understanding the testing priciples for myself, and seeing any potential flaws in either side.

unfortunatly due to soo many varibles in hive growth side by side test are less than conclusive. even with large numbers of hives in one location or one genetic line testing can be a bit inconclusive.

I experince the same issues in both AG and automitive testing in which I am deeply involved... So I seek data and observations from as many sources as possible...

I defintly don't wish to close down discussion by trying to be one sided......

Charles

[DRUR]

... I have discovered (9-10) bees with mites in this colony, and I look diligently, have taken pictures of every frame, downloaded on the computer and carefully examined every bee. Also, I have deligently checked my oil trays and have found 8-10 mites and I examine these with a magnifying glass.

The one I found today is the only one I have found in my 4 regressed colonies and I have used to above procedures to check them. I am also wondering if the one I found may not have drifted from my non regressed colony.

Danny

I might also add that the 9-10 mite sightings on these non regressed bees has been this past week. Prior to that I spotted none, either by personal observation or on camera. I would say that either I am getting better at spotting the mite bees (which could be) or the varroa destructor population is going up in the non regressed bees since allowing the queen back on the large cells. My older son (21) is rather insistent that I get the regression implemented on this colony thinking that we are going to lose them to destructor, if not. I am inclined to agree with him at this point. My reason for allowing the queen to move back up on the large cells, is that she would not lay in the small cell frames provide to her. At that time all I had to offer her were the HSC (honeysupercell) plastic frames and undrawn Mann Lake which the bees were also not drawing out. I now have some drawn out Mann Lake frames to offer her so this week she will be getting pushed back down and I will try again to regress.

Danny