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Fumidil scheduling - overwhelmed newbee

13K views 69 replies 24 participants last post by  BEES4U 
#1 ·
Hello again,

Not sure if this belongs in the 101 section or the IPM section, because it's a medication question from someone still learning the ropes, so please move it if you feel like it belongs down there instead.

So I'm reviewing my notes from bee school tonight and I feel like I've missed a MAJOR deadline. All through my notes (but apparently not attached to my long term memory) I have written about the importance of treating new package bees with Fumidil in the spring. Our instructor noted that a good time to treat them would be, oh, tomorrow.

Guess who forgot to order Fumidil.

I'm in eastern Massachusetts. I ordered some tonight but it's just not one of those things that you can knock on your neighbor's door and borrow a teaspoon of. Although that gives me an idea...I'll make a few phone calls tomorrow. Anyway, I note that there needs to be a 30 day lag time between them drinking down a gallon of Fumidil syrup and the honey flow. If the honey flow starts sometime in June, and my bees have taken three weeks to drink 3 quarts of syrup, am I pretty much doomed?

Another question since I'm on the subject: I'm trying to be as natural as possible with my hive. How natural is Fumidil? Are there other more natural ways to treat preventatively with nocema (like using confectioner sugar or drone comb for varroa)?

Thanks for your responses...
 
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#3 ·
It was recommended to us in bee school both by our textbook and by the instructor to auto-treat (even if there wasn't a problem) in New England, especially with new packaged bees (which mine are). But your post gives me hope...does that mean that it's not universal to auto-treat?
 
#4 ·
This thread brings up a good point.When I questioned the person I got my nucs from about medication and other additives he looked at me like I had two heads.His attitude was the same as JPK 's.The exact words was something like " if you dont see a issue dont treat it" How many on the forum actually use all the stuff thats out there whether its a medication or suppliment? and what exactly are you using ?
 
#5 ·
You are not doomed.........:) When it arrives give them
a dose.

The latest news and info on nosema ceranae gives some
credence to treating. Many feel that it is the biggest single
factor in "CCD".

I have always been of the mind of "don't treat unless you
need to" as well. But the latest Spanish study on nosema
ceranae has me rethinking this.

http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48
 
#8 ·
A study done the year before last by one of the bee labs...I can't remember which but will try and research it showed that bees fed 1:1 and bees fed 1:1 with Fum B had the same results. Basically, it stated that just feeding lots of sugar water will knock down the nosema spores as well as treating them with fum B. throw in a little spearmint and lemongrass EO and you just got a natural treatment that seems to work pretty well. I think Randy Oliver's web site talks about this as well.
 
#10 ·
You are on the right track when your instincts prod you into questioning what is "natural".

Listen to that voice.

Select for tough bees not tough pathogens.

Don't provide a crutch for weakness or you'll get more of the same.

When you use antibiotics you are using a carpet bomb rather than a smart bomb.

In other words antibiotics kill ALL bacteria including certain helpful bacteria (that's right- not all bacteria are harmful) which are part of the intestinal tract of your bees. Bacteria which are naturally part of their immune system.

Think about that before you treat.
 
#11 ·
#12 ·
nosema - treat or not

I read the posts on nosema treatment and was just at workshop with Ross Conrad who also said he does not treat for nosema - as a newbie, coming from a bee school where everyone treats for nosema in the fall - I am being cautious about not treating, but really don't want to. My beekeeping partner (and partner in life) wants to treat his hive - I am hesitant.

Does it make sense to get a spore count and if the count is ok, then not treat - but if it is high, treat?

I also thought the organic,bio folks did not feed sugar water - but I read Michael Bush's post saying sugar water treats nosema - so I am confused.

I have sugar water on my hives with thyme and sea salt as they are new and are building comb. Should I be adding lemongrass EO to fight any nosema?

thanks for further explanation. someone really needs to write a book aboout this kind of stuff.
 
#13 ·
I also believe that when they mean before the nectar flow they also mean, if you are planning on taking honey off the hive for human consumption. As they are a new package you are probably not planning on taking any honey off of them this year anyway, you should be clear to treat.
 
#14 ·
We have long mild wet winters and springs here. Our bees can be in the hives for a long time with no flying, but in mild temperatures. Fumidil is expensive and after using it for a few years I stopped.

I had nosema (at least weak hives and staining) every year. Sometimes they came out of it later in the year after that, sometimes they died. I never got honey from those hives.

I ordered queens from different places to try to solve that. I also had chalkbrood issues around that time and was trying to solve that issue also. Different queens seemed to solve the chalkbrood problem but not the nosema.

So about 10 years ago I started treating in the fall only. I had fed sugar water only for all of those years in the spring, so for me that didn't work. I haven't had a hive with nosema that was noticable for these last 10 years.

So, I suspect it is weather related. If your bees can get out every week or so after the winter cluster you may not need it. We can have months of misty rain through June. So try without it. If you get weak clusters in the spring that don't come out of it you may want to start with an annual treatment. If you don't, then you can save a bunch of money.

I never had much luck feeding it after they came down with it. They don't seem to eat so you can't reliably get the Fumidil in them. Maybe I noticed it too late since I don't get in the wet hives often either.
 
#19 ·
Antibiotic or not scientific reshearch has shown they do help. I had the flu (not fun) before taking flu shots and haven't had so much as a bad cold for many years after taking flu shots.:thumbsup:When treating with fumidil spring and fall i would usually lose 2 to no more than 5 out of 50 hives, last year i didn't treat and lost 27 hives out of 50. I don't like using chemicals in me or my hives but if it works and you follow directions you should be safe. It's a matter of choice and what works for you in your area. I might ad that fumagilin B is the only chemical i us in my hives unless you want to call EO's a chemical. Jack
 
#18 ·
>So do you take a flu shot before or after you catch the flu?

Never had a flu shot... I don't plan on it...

If you insist on treating (which I would not, not only because Fumidil causes birth defects but because anything that kills Nosema is going to disrupt the ecology of the hive by killing other needed microorganisms and those that displace Nosema), the Australians did a study and showed that Lemongrass essential oil was effective against Nosema.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmorethan.htm
 
#24 ·
I was referring to the difference between Illinois and Washington climate. I believe that I told the original poster that I believe that the differences in opinions that they were hearing were possibly because of differences in weather/climate.

If I don't use it, I get sick bees. Since I don't keep bees where the original poster does I told them to try going without using it. If they get sick bees they may have to try it, but they might be able to avoid the hassle and cost.

The problem with advice from a world wide forum is that what works in one area may not work in another. We all just need to remember that at times.
 
#26 ·
So those of you who never treat for Nosema, you do not lose hives to Nosema? Or do you lose hives, and accept that the hives were weak, inferior, etc and so accept the loss as you move toward more viable hive genetics? Are there early symptons we might see in the fall - or do symptoms occur in late winter/early spring when we are not entering the hive?

I am feeling upset that our bee school taught chemical treatments as if this was unquestioned. Our state bee inspection likes chemicals, too and of course he is speaking at our August bee club meeting about chemicals for fall to ensure over wintering. Aghg!!
 
#27 ·
Barry, i think the climate is quite different here in SW mo. than Chicago, Ill. Your winters are wetter and colder. From what i've read in ABJ and BC mag's that nosema may be a link to ccd, and when i lost 27 hives last year because i wanted to try the chemical free route it got my attention quick. I will use fumagilin-B this fall and spring now that i'm back up to 55 hives and see if it makes a difference.I remember the good old days when all we worried about was wax moths and AFB and would like to go back there, but this is a different time and no telling what's ahead of us. I'm not telling a new beekeeper he should use antibiotics, i'm just saying they have worked for me. Jack
 
#31 ·
I'm not telling a new beekeeper he should use antibiotics, i'm just saying they have worked for me. Jack
There's no doubt they work. But you can't avoid the obvious. For how long? Why do they need the continued drug intervention? What is the long term effect? Questions we all must face ourselves when in the same situation. Our actions have consequences down the road, if not very quickly.
 
#32 ·
When speaking to bee clubs in my area, I often times find that new beekeepers are sold a laundry list of items that they are told are essential to beekeeping. On this list, usually, are all the medications. Now, I'm not accusing all the suppliers as being solely profit driven, but I also don't know why they don't even suggest going the natural route when, speaking to them directly, they realize the dead end path of medication dependency and medication resistant pests and diseases.

When talking to clubs, my notes looks sort of like this:

1) Talk about problems/diseases one by one.
2) Talk about medications and cost.
3) Describe the PROPER usage of the medications, should they decide to do so.
3) Talk about natural selection and strengthening local genetics.

And, like beekeepers and their hives, each club is different and more (or less) receptive to the idea of natural beekeeping than the next. But, there's ALWAYS a new beekeeper in the audience who had NO IDEA that there was any alternatives to using medications in their hive.

DS
 
#33 ·
1) Talk about problems/diseases one by one.
2) Talk about medications and cost.
3) Describe the PROPER usage of the medications, should they decide to do so.
3) Talk about natural selection and strengthening local genetics.
DS
Good stuff; could I possibly suggest a 5th? Talk about the way beekeepers are also bee breeders, and the principles of traditional selection of specimens for health.

Try to put newcomers in touch with the simple yet effective time-honoured tenets of husbandry, founded in raising disease-resistant stock. Its tough for newcomers with just one hive, but if we miss them here, they're already started out on the wrong foot.

Mike

http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/The Principles of Breeding_Seed Selection.htm
 
#34 ·
How about checking if you nosema first??

You can collect a sample of about 30 bees and send them to the labs in Beltsville( packed in a ziplock bag w/alcohol) where they will test for free. If you have over a million spore count, consider your options. Try something or nothing but resample the same hive and see what your results come back like.
Waiting until you see visual signs of nosema cerana in the final stages is too late. I see plenty of strong hives that are making lots of surplus honey with spore counts in the millions.
IMO the first course of action should be finding out what you have, then consider what to do about it.

Good luck!!
 
#35 ·
>So those of you who never treat for Nosema, you do not lose hives to Nosema?

No. Every time there has been a long confinement there is a lot of bee poop. Sometimes a particular hive seems to have a worst bought of it. If you feed them syrup or honey they snap right out of it. I can't say I have or have not had Nosema. I did buy a microscope and planned to look this year but got too busy and there didn't seem to be any problems with dysentary this year.

> Or do you lose hives, and accept that the hives were weak, inferior, etc and so accept the loss as you move toward more viable hive genetics?

IF I lost hives, that would be my view, yes. But I don't see that happen really. But I try not to breed from hives that have problems like dysentery and chalkbrood etc.

>Are there early symptons we might see in the fall - or do symptoms occur in late winter/early spring when we are not entering the hive?

>I am feeling upset that our bee school taught chemical treatments as if this was unquestioned.

They want it to be. :)

> Our state bee inspection likes chemicals, too and of course he is speaking at our August bee club meeting about chemicals for fall to ensure over wintering. Aghg!!

Better living through chemistry.
 
#36 ·
The days when someone said "Nosema" and we all knew what they were talking about are over. There are two distinct Nosema strains, Nosema Apis, and the more recently presented Nosema Ceranae. Some here seem to be referring to one, some to the other. We personally have not treated for Nosema A in years, have found it unnecessary, and indeed would not consider it unless observing the familiar symptoms like staining which make diagnosis easier. Nosema Ceranae, on the other hand, presents no symptoms other than continued weakening and eventual failure. The only way to diagnose Nosema C is through a spore count. Waiting until collapse is imminent to treat pretty much guarantees the loss of that colony. People should be made aware of the differences and the much different degrees of mortality in each of these Nosema strains. IMO Nosema C requires a much more aggressive approach to diagnosis and treatment, whatever you deem treatment should be.
Many of the winter losses some blame on starvation and/or exposure might better be blamed on Nosema C, and might have been avoided if dealt with in the fall.
Sheri
 
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