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  1. #21
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    Default What day was it?

    frostygoat wrote "All this is well documented in the fossil record, and began 249,999,000 years before the literal biblical creation of the earth"

    Just curious; what day was that? Even if it is accepted that one cell something formed in the ancient seas, the 'Spark of life' is an intangible that had to come from another source (God). Besides, a lot of what scientist believe will be discarded for a new theory sometime in the future.
    My opinion.
    leamon

  2. #22
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    Default

    I think this thread should probably have been started in "Tailgater". This is a hot button topic. I avoid that area because changing peoples minds about such things is very difficult. I have been a fossil collector for 38 years and believed that the earth was millions of years old. Because I allowed myself to question the age of the earth theory, I got a hold of the correct information and now see that there is no "proof" in millions of years or evolution. It is all about what you want to believe. Carbon 14 and other methods of dating vary several millions of years. These testing methods are not even able to correctly go past a few thousand years. I give presentations about the age of the earth which in my studies show that it is indeed areound 6000 to 6300 years old. The petrification process can begin as early as a few years. These topics raise my blood pressure so I avoid "tailgater" now. Believe what you like; that is fine, but the honey bee was created on Day 6, the same day that humans were created. Have a great day.

  3. #23
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hillhousehoney View Post
    I think this thread should probably have been started in "Tailgater". This is a hot button topic. I avoid that area because changing peoples minds about such things is very difficult. I have been a fossil collector for 38 years and believed that the earth was millions of years old. Because I allowed myself to question the age of the earth theory, I got a hold of the correct information and now see that there is no "proof" in millions of years or evolution. It is all about what you want to believe. Carbon 14 and other methods of dating vary several millions of years. These testing methods are not even able to correctly go past a few thousand years. I give presentations about the age of the earth which in my studies show that it is indeed areound 6000 to 6300 years old. The petrification process can begin as early as a few years. These topics raise my blood pressure so I avoid "tailgater" now. Believe what you like; that is fine, but the honey bee was created on Day 6, the same day that humans were created. Have a great day.
    No, it shouldn't have been started in tailgater. It's just that the posts that have sought to make his comment into a religious discussion should have confined their comments to tailgater forum.

  4. #24
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    Default

    I had a vision of the future, and in the future I was wearing a white robe and working with a box full of sweetly singing angel-like creatures who were spreading pixie dust and collecting sweet ambrosia, which they deposited directly into a honeybear positioned need the hive.

    That's where the bees are going, folks!

    (maybe I gotta stop watching cartoons )

  5. #25
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    Default

    So far frostygoat (and a couple others) has posted the only on-topic response. If you don't agree with the premise of the thread, do the rest of us a favor and just move along please. The original poster was fishing for more information on honeybee evolution and didn't want a creation vs. evolution debate. Please respect the intentions of the original poster.

    I, for one, found frosty's post quite fascinating.

  6. #26
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    Default

    Point taken. I will rephrase my answer to the original statement which was:

    "I was just reading the History of Bees in this book, The Beekeeper's Handbook and it states that bees started out as predatory wasps 200 Million years ago.
    I never realized this, that surprises me! "

    Bee started out as bees, they did not start out as wasps. The source should have stated that some people believe that they started out as wasps. Since no one was there to witness this, and it can't be duplicated in a laboratory, it is simply one persons assumption in regard to this matter.

  7. #27
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    I honestly don't think the original poster needs to qualify his post in such language. You can do perfectly well by assuming what you've stated as inherent in the original post and moving along.

    And, by your own rule, shouldn't you have said: "Some of us believe bees started out as bees, they did not start out as wasps."?

    I knew you meant that w/o you having to say it though.
    Last edited by iwombat; 04-13-2009 at 04:18 PM.

  8. #28
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    Default

    Wether we be evolutionists or creationists or non beleivers or believers, do we not have common ground in the honey bee, that these little insects are as wonderous as they are fathomless, amazing as they are miraculous.
    Will Gruenwald Chilliwack BC

  9. #29
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    Default

    Yeah, and his theories on evolution didn't spring whole from his noggin, they evolved.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  10. #30
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hillhousehoney View Post
    I got a hold of the correct information and now see that there is no "proof" in millions of years or evolution.
    I always find it fascinating when people think they are in posession of some fascinating "correct" information that directly contradicts something that is well established, I suspect it makes them feel special.
    It is all about what you want to believe. Carbon 14 and other methods of dating vary several millions of years.
    A common misconception. Carbon 14 is not used for dating unless we are talking biological materials and a suspected age of <50,000 years. When I see people say something like the above it makes me wonder who is really reading up, and who is parroting things that merely fit their preconceived notions.

    Believe what you like; that is fine, but the honey bee was created on Day 6, the same day that humans were created. Have a great day.


    Keith "the earth is young because the bible says so, the bible says so, because the earth is young . . "Benson
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillhousehoney View Post
    it is simply one persons assumption in regard to this matter.
    It is not a mere assumption, well it is if you don't like the conclusion and eant to disregard the evidence.

    Have a great Day!

    Keith
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  12. #32
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    Default

    I wonder if the creationists have ever considered that perhaps evolution is God's method of creation? Is continually creating over the course of millions of years any less miraculous than doing it in seven days? He has all the time in the world after all.

    Creationism vs. evolution is a false choice IMO.

    Ok enough of that.

    I sometimes wonder what is the relationship between ants and honey bees if any? They have such similar body structures and reproductive methods that the comparison is inescapable.

    Thanks for the information. Good food for thought.

  13. #33
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    On the eighth day God found he had made a big mistake and that he was going to have to live w/ it for eternity. So evolution was invented so God wouldn't be totally bored.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  14. #34
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    Default Ants and Bees

    Dr. Wax,

    Ants and bees are actually quite closely related. They are placed in the same taxonomic order (Hymenoptera) and even share the same suborder (Apocrita). This places the degree of their taxonomic relatedness on par with deer and cows (both are in the same order - Artiodactyla and the same suborder - Ruminantia).

  15. #35
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by leamon View Post
    frostygoat wrote "All this is well documented in the fossil record, and began 249,999,000 years before the literal biblical creation of the earth"

    Just curious; what day was that? Even if it is accepted that one cell something formed in the ancient seas, the 'Spark of life' is an intangible that had to come from another source (God). Besides, a lot of what scientist believe will be discarded for a new theory sometime in the future.
    My opinion.
    leamon
    Yes good point, this is a very common argument of the ID folks, but it doesn't disprove evolution or even argue against it. Evolution by natural selection has stood up to every test. It used to be, "there are holes in the fossil record", or "there are no intermediate species in the fossil record" both of which are no longer true. The biggie is prediction, for example "if evolution is true we should find X species in X strata that is 150 million years old" and you go out and dig and there it is, just what you predicted. Not to mention the genetic evidence.

    But you're right. Biologists *as yet* have not recreated life under the conditions present when it began on earth. Self assembly of molecules, yes. Spontaneous formation of cell membranes, yes. Inheritance of characters in non-living, self assembling, evolving molecules, yes. Scientific opinion is that it is just a matter of time (and chance!). If the fact that it hasn't been done is compelling evidence for a creator for you, then by all means.

    Nowadays even the pope accepts evolution, it is as good a theory as gravity and need not offend religious beliefs.

    Evolution is under attack in this country, so I get a little nuts, but note my original post said nothing about a creator. I came here to learn about apiculture from everyone here regardless of beliefs, not to argue or offend. I'm new here and didn't think evolution of bees was controversial, just a cool topic that can help us understand more about them, so now I know!
    Last edited by frostygoat; 04-14-2009 at 01:07 PM. Reason: typo

  16. #36
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by frostygoat View Post
    I'm new here and didn't think evolution of bees was controversial, just a cool topic that can help us understand more about them, so now I know!
    So, Grasshopper, you have learned a valuable lesson, and that is that EVERYTHING posted here can be, and at some time probably has been, controversial. Such is the order of things. Do not let it impede your posting predilections.

    Bill

    p.s. It IS a cool topic.
    “If you want to gather honey, don't kick over the beehive.” - Dale Carnegie

  17. #37
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    Default

    And more than once, I thought this thread destined for the tailgater. I must commend everyone for keeping this topic below the wire allowing opinions to be tabled without condemning (too much)!

    Thank You!

    Carry on.................
    "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." Winston Churchill

  18. #38
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    Default

    a dr wax snip:
    Creationism vs. evolution is a false choice IMO.

    tecumseh:
    I would suggest it ain't even the same question. one speaks to 'the beginning' and the other speaks to how things changed since/after the beginning.

    it is not so difficult (for me) to believe there is something of god's perfection in both the start and the process.

  19. #39
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    Default Creationism and Evolution

    Tecumseh,

    I am with you. I don't see a conflict between faith and the science. I view the process as the tool used to create the life we see today. Every hive body, bottom board, etc. is made through the combination of two elements: the carpenter and the tools - some carpenters even make their own tools.

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