Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 39
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Rumford, Maine, USA
    Posts
    27

    Default 200 Million Yrs Ago - Bees started as Wasps


    I was just reading the History of Bees in this book, The Beekeeper's Handbook and it states that bees started out as predatory wasps 200 Million years ago.
    I never realized this, that surprises me!
    Don't Worry, Bee Happy!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Todd County, Mn, USA
    Posts
    41

    Default

    Guess it depends on what you believe. Personally, I believe the world is quite a bit younger than that and honey bees started out as honey bees.
    Have a great Easter,
    Nuke

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    374

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMaineBee View Post

    I was just reading the History of Bees in this book, The Beekeeper's Handbook and it states that bees started out as predatory wasps 200 Million years ago.
    I never realized this, that surprises me!
    Cool. Ants, I understand, are thought to have started from wasps as well.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Arlington, TX, USA
    Posts
    453

    Default

    I concur with Nuke.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Limestone, Alabama
    Posts
    577

    Default

    If we were to believe this evolution crap, then when did bees stop evolving? What will they become in the future, termites!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Oregon City, Oregon
    Posts
    988

    Default

    I dont know about bee evolution, but I think most humans are going backwards as we speek !!!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Loganville, GA
    Posts
    2,172

    Default

    Yeah, my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great
    great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandpappy kept them back then. Said they were a bear to handle!!!

    "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." Winston Churchill

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    College Station, Texas
    Posts
    6,973

    Default

    whether you might believe in evolution or one of the many creations stories??? they are just that, stories compliled from little or no evidence. it seems to me the 'little or no evidence' is the only difference in either myth.

    beeaware ask:
    If we were to believe this evolution crap, then when did bees stop evolving? What will they become in the future, termites!

    tecumseh:
    first I would guess by your attitude that you really don't wish for an answer here, but I will give you my take on this anyway. evolution is a never ending process and it is taking place right before our own eyes. it is however unfolding at such a slow rate (usually) that you and I are incapable of recognizing this CHANGE.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,252

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeAware View Post
    If we were to believe this evolution crap, then when did bees stop evolving?
    Who says they've stopped?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Claremont, NH, USA
    Posts
    783

    Default

    Whatever one's take on evolution, I've always loved the juxtapositioning in this quote from Darwin:

    “I was a young man with uninformed ideas. I threw out queries, suggestions, wondering all the time over everything; and to my astonishment the ideas took like wildfire. People made a religion of them.”


    I still chuckle when I read it, imagining how he must have felt.

    As for the evolution of bees from wasps, well, organization and cooperation bring efficiency in use of resources, efficiency in use of resources is an advantage, and advantages sometimes move from the edge of the bell curve to the center. Or, sometimes not. After all, it is all just a roll of the dice.

    Or is it?

    Bill
    “If you want to gather honey, don't kick over the beehive.” - Dale Carnegie

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Woodlawn, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    328

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMaineBee View Post

    200 Million years ago.... that surprises me!
    Surprises me too. Didn't know we had any beekeepers that old!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Cashmere, WA, USA
    Posts
    158

    Default

    Cool thread this stuff really gets me excited. More food for thought: The order Hymenoptera first appeared in the Triassic (250 MYA) and were plant eaters, similar to the sawflies that are still with us today. The ovipositor was used to deliver eggs into plants, through bark etc. This structure evolved into the stinger in the bees, wasps, and ants (Aculeata), but was retained and used to bore lay eggs in and on hosts in the parasitoids (Apocrita). All this is well documented in the fossil record, and began 249,999,000 years before the literal biblical creation of the earth, at a time when the dinosaurs were the dominant vertebrate lifeforms on Earth. I'm not sure what the reference in the book was but the bees ants and wasps had a common ancestor, a "primitive" wasp similar to a sawfly, but these groups evolved concurrently. To be clear: to say bees are derived from wasps as we know them today is incorrect.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
    Posts
    1,162

    Default

    Less than 20 years ago Varroa used to be susceptible to both Coumophos and fuvalinate (Apistan), its seems they have evolved the ability to cope with these materials relatively rapidly. What traits will the honeybee develop over the next hundred years? I suspect ones that help in dealing with Varroa such as allogrooming, VSH, shorter pupation cycles, and SMR type traits.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Clearwater, Florida
    Posts
    11

    Default

    In the beginning! Wether you are a creationist or evolutionist, the one common denominator is that ther was a beginning, and you can't make something from nothing. For this reason I belive in creation, no matter how long it took.

    Happy Easter

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Mason County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    173

    Default

    Personally, I have seen what looked to be something much like the modern honey bee incased in amber. I am not sure how old the amber was, but it was fossilized amber. That leads me to believe that there were some sort of honey bees way back when.

    If we all lived the same ways and believed the same things, then it would be a dull world. The only one who can answer how long honey bees have been around, is the honey bees themselves and they are not talking.....I am sorry, but I could not help myself.

    Brenda

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Snowmass, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    2,497

    Default

    So...if bees evolved from wasps...how come there are wasps today? Shouldn't they all have evolved into bees?

    Adaption and evolution are two different things. If you adapt a skin color that prevents you from getting sunburned in a hot climate you are adapting, not evolving. The same if you or varroa mites build a resistance to a chemical they are adapting, not evolving.
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.” John Wayne

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
    Posts
    1,162

    Default Form Follows Function

    "In biology, evolution is change in the genetic material of a population of organisms from one generation to the next." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

    If there is genetic change resulting in adaption it could be considered evolution. Repeated adaptation to specific environs over time can result in distinct speciation. Failure to adapt leads to extinction. Different characteristics are required for organisms to thrive in nature's diverse array of niches; hence natures wealth of biodiversity. Different traits are required for different niches. This is why pigs do not fly and all wasps did not evolve into bees. There are some niches in which only a wasp will do.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Cedar Bluff, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    141

    Default

    Well i don't know about you guys but i know where my honey bees came from. They came from swarms from Lebanon VA a couple of years ago. So that should be much more recent evidence lol.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Belfield, North Dakota, USA
    Posts
    605

    Default

    JBJ has it right - evolution is simply defined as a 'change in gene pool frequencies of a population over time'. This change does not necessarily result in the formation of a new species (called 'microevolution'). If it does result in the formation of a new species (requires isolation of the population) it is called 'macroevolution'.

    Evolution is both fact (microevolution) and theory (macroevolution). As JBJ states - pests like varroa have, over time, become resistant to the chemicals applied to them. This is because some small number of their populations (when the chemicals were applied) possessed a genetic resistance to the chemicals that permitted them to survive. They survived, reproduced and passed this resistance to their offspring (in the same way that you have your mother's eyes). The resultant populations of offspring are more resistant to the chemical treatments. This is the fact of evolution - the gene pool of the varroa population has changed over time (it exhibits more pesticide resistant genes). This process has happened and is readily demostrable in any number of examples (antibiotics/bacteria, black plague/humans, etc.).

    Macroevolution is the theory that applies these principles in an attempt to demonstrate how the overall process may have resulted in forming the present populations that we see today. Michael Palmer has it right as well - bees have not stopped evolving - factually, their populations change over time in a micro way continuously, they (and all other living populations) are always (micro)evolving - theoretically, in 200,000 years (or whenever), they may (macro)evolve - the bees we know today may no longer exist and have been replaced by some other 'bee-like' organism.

    Which brings me to the last point - while it is popular to say or hear things like, "bees evolved from wasps" (or worse, "humans evolved from apes"), this is not strictly correct in an evolutionary context (and probably results in much of the misunderstanding and conflict surrounding evolution). According to evolutionary theory, it is more correct to suggest that both wasps and bees have evolved from some 'wasp-like' ancestor - an insect that probably resembled modern wasps - but was not a modern wasp.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    374

    Default

    When I was a young boy, I asked my dad if the earth was just 6000 years old, where did dinosaurs come from.

    He said, maybe when God created the earth, he used material from other planets, and the dinosaur bones were included in the rock from other planets.

    I said, that doesn't seem to make much sense.

    I'm religious, but I don't believe in a kind of religion that demands we don't think, that we don't explore, that we don't question.

    The guy wants to talk about the scientific evidence of the origin of bees, maybe we can keep our pet religious theories in our back pockets and respect the man's original inquiry.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads