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  1. #41
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    chilliwack, bc
    Posts
    642

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregg View Post
    We fed HBH last fall instead of fumagillin, which I believe now was a very costly mistake, and one which I will never make again. Don't know if we had CCD or not, or just nosema (is there a difference?), but we had a lot of colonies with CCD-like symptoms, and continued to dwindle even in February & March in CA until they were completely dead. I estimate I lost 40% of my hives this winter
    I experienced the same thing 2 winters ago after feeding HBH in the fall. Although it might not be much EO, EO's are still oils and probable not suitable for bees when confined in the hive for long periods in the winter. In circumstances like this I think the oils give the bees the screaming 'you-know-whats'. this past fall I fed without EO's adding the recommended dosage per gallon of fumigillin and now I have the best bees I've had in a long time.

    I still spray a medicated syrup on the bees in the fall with EO's that are different from what you would find in HBH but there is to little for them to store.

    I found using HBH, or the EO's that make it up, in the syrup in the late spring has good results and using it as a spray for when applying formic acid like wise.
    Will Gruenwald Chilliwack BC

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Auger Hole, MN
    Posts
    433

    Default

    attending a local bee meeting this week a well known bee researcher pointed out that the only "proven" benefit from HBH is as a feed stimulant.

    the rest is folklore and hype. no single scientific study shows any benefits for nosema. Randy Olivers independent testing showed no benefit either for nosema.

    on this site I am continually amazed at the number of beeks trying to make unproven home made formulas work when we have safe and effective alternatives which actually have scientific evidence to back them up.

    a prime example is thymol. its the active ingredient in Apiguard. why not use it ? instead we have folks doing every thing from putting thymol in their smoker to feeding it in syrup. in my view its laughable and a utter waste of time and in the end bees when they die.

    stick with the science and safe labeled proven products and forget this mumbo jumbo recipes for disaster. like a good friend of mine a 80 year old beekeeper said " the thing about essential oils used in treatments is they essentially don't work!" .

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    souris, manitoba, canada
    Posts
    769

    Default study in Turkey

    http://www.scialert.net/pdfs/pjbs/2005/1142-1145.pdf

    This result has not been duplicated that I know of, also discussed in previous threads

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Seattle, Washington State
    Posts
    4,398

    Default

    Great artical Irwin. Looks like it works in sugar syrup and according to Buds criteria, it is science.

    I think a lot of beekeepers try new things. It is a nature of humans to try through trial and error. Sometimes science is slow to reveal things. A lot of stuff beekeepers do (and others do as well) works but science has not weighed in on it. Just because science says something doesnt mean it is always right. Just like listening to the weather report!
    Chef Isaac..Culinary Arts and Honey are a sweet mix! http://www.sweetascanbeehoneyfarm.com & http://www.adoptahive.info

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    VENTURA, California, USA
    Posts
    3,604

    Default This result has not been duplicated

    I liked the sumation of the feeding trial.
    Mostly about how thymol was rated.
    Ernie
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM, USA
    Posts
    16

    Default

    I am an Aromatherapist. Not the hokey new age kind, but the science based common sense kind. Unfortunately, there have not been a whole lot of clinical studies and there is so much more to know about EOs. But extensive studies are going on as we speak in Europe, Cairo and in Arizona, just to name the university based studies I know of.

    As for wintergreen - of the hundreds of oils I have, wintergreen is not one of them. It is a toxic substance, irritating and sensitizing and an environmental hazard. It has no use in aromatherapy at all. The true oil of wintergreen is obsolete, posing a new problem. Most oils called wintergreen are synthetic methyl salicylate.

    I don't feel that either the synthetic or the real thing - if it could be found should be used with any living thing, let alone bees. All my books say "avoid!, both internally and externally".

    There are better oils to use: The following are antibiotic, antiseptic, antiviral and antifungal: Lavender, Eucalyptus lemon, Eucalyptus radiata (very mild smell), onion, tea tree and thyme. Lavender is the most commonly found, and is also a real bonus to have around the house, as nothing is better for a burn, it can be used "neat" or without dilution on bare skin. Mixed with some clay and water to make mud - it is instant relief to bug bites. Haven't been stung yet to know if it works with bee stings, but since it works with every other bite or sting we have experienced so far, it is what I will be reaching for.

    There are many other oils out there that share all, most or one or two of the "anti" properties mentioned above, but since there are so many books available now on the subject of essential oils, I really suggest getting one or two for your shelf before experimenting. Know your ingredients. ALSO - be sure to know the origin of your oils and always look for "pure" and "natural" on the label. Use organic whenever given the choice. If there is no country of origin on the bottle - don't buy it. The oils are expensive, and if you see a deal - it probably isn't pure. Adulteration of EOs with other oils and synthetics is very common.

    There is my rant. I am new to bees, but not essential oils.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Seattle, Washington State
    Posts
    4,398

    Default

    do you suggest a book?
    Chef Isaac..Culinary Arts and Honey are a sweet mix! http://www.sweetascanbeehoneyfarm.com & http://www.adoptahive.info

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM, USA
    Posts
    16

    Default

    I can.
    An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Essential Oils - Julia Lawless
    Complete Book of Essential Oils and Aromatherapy - Valerie Ann Woowood
    Complete Guide to Aromatherapy - Salvatore Battaglia

    They are all good. The first one is a great quick but informative guide. The second is good for overall uses. The third is the most scientific of all, will be best for someone using the oils for more than aromatherapy, but is a very expensive book. Get an older edition used if you can find one.

    Buying EOs in bulk is useless unless you can store them in a cool dark place. I use a closet on the north side of the house. One of the best places in the US to get them wholesale at a reasonable price is Liberty Naturals. There are other good, reputable places too, but not as reasonably priced.

    Happy researching to you. My favorite thing - except when I was in college. Funny, isn't it?

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Mesa County, Grand Junction Colorado
    Posts
    23

    Default

    So where are you guys buying the mint... lemon grass... ect...?

    Thanks
    River Dog

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Phelps Co. Missouri USA
    Posts
    856

    Default

    I get my Lemon Grass & speriment from;

    Pure Essential Oil
    P.O. Box 506
    McIntosh NM
    67032

    Cheapest prices I found, Oh, and I'm not connected.

    PCM

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Weymouth, Massachusetts
    Posts
    220

    Default

    Whole Foods.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Jackson, MO
    Posts
    1,858

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PCM View Post
    I get my Lemon Grass & speriment from;

    Pure Essential Oil
    P.O. Box 506
    McIntosh NM
    67032

    Cheapest prices I found, Oh, and I'm not connected.

    PCM

    Do they have a web site URL?

    Grant
    Jackson, MO
    Beekeeping With Twenty-five Hives: https://www.createspace.com/4152725

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    South San Ysidro, NM
    Posts
    503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PCM View Post
    I get my Lemon Grass & speriment from;

    Pure Essential Oil
    P.O. Box 506
    McIntosh NM
    67032

    Cheapest prices I found, Oh, and I'm not connected.

    PCM
    Thats not a NM zip code. That 6 should probably be an 8. (Former UPS sorter with zip codes still swimming in my head...)

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Phelps Co. Missouri USA
    Posts
    856

    Default

    Yes you are correct !!

    The Zip Code is 87032

    Sorry, Ole Bumble Fingers types again
    PCM

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Auger Hole, MN
    Posts
    433

    Default

    too bad this stuff had any benefit at all.

    a midwestern researcher said at a recent meeting that her testing showed no effect other then slightly increasing syrup uptake.

    its a feel good additive - makes the beekeeper feel good they did something for their bees.

    get the concentrations mixed up in your recipe and you can even do more damage then just feeling good

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    1,313

    Default

    Bud,

    Even if it didn't help the bees, I would use it.

    It allows me to store the made up syrup for months without it getting moldy. I also think it helps the bees communicate the nature of the food to their hive mates. The smell to a bee must be pretty strong. They can home right in on it and get to lapping it up.
    Troy

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Phelps Co. Missouri USA
    Posts
    856

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Dingler View Post
    too bad this stuff had any benefit at all.

    a midwestern researcher said at a recent meeting that her testing showed no effect other then slightly increasing syrup uptake.

    its a feel good additive - makes the beekeeper feel good they did something for their bees.

    get the concentrations mixed up in your recipe and you can even do more damage then just feeling good
    Could you please identify this " midwestern researcher " ?

    Unknown research info is sure confuseing.

    Thanks
    PCM

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Auger Hole, MN
    Posts
    433

    Default

    my experience is unless you have a printed published article to reference researchers do not appreciate being quoted from meetings or conferences.

    it is very easy to slightly distort their message. I also value the communication pipelines I have with several researchers who provide me with up to date information that will never be piublished. some of it involves beekeepers and their mistakes which no one wants to broadcast.

    call a local bee researcher and ask about HBH.

    my background is extensive and I kept bees back when no one ever put anything into hives. In my late years now I have returned to that philosophy. Beekeepers are WAY to eager to put stuff into their hives. Science is never straight forward and its only now we have the proof of how devastating the contamination and synergy is between fluvalinate and comaphous (apistan and checkmite), we may find someday that putting these essential oils into a hive also impacts the delicate balance inside the hive.

    my advice is stick with the basics, raise your own queens preferably from resistant stock like VSH or Russian both proven to beat mites.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Auger Hole, MN
    Posts
    433

    Default also

    unless you get a certificate of analysis on these ingredients and have a strong background in chemisty you are shooting from the hip in the dark.

    Cheap essential oils can and often do contain other materials to dilute or assist with production.

    Resellers who are sometimes clueless can be less then honest or down right ignorant. Unless you know where an ingredient is made and have a discussion with the maker you have little gaurantee of what you are buying. Do you think the makers of HBH buy any oil off the internet? Of course not.

    Unless you have the resources or background to play honeybee
    medication chemist you are possibly damaging your bees and wasting time and money.

    Some 100% pure oils are toxic in their pure form. This topic is much more complicated then the discussion that precedes my post here. Many well meaning folks here are playing out of their league.

    I do not mean to trash anyone just raise the caution flag. In addition to my over 50 years with bees I also have an advanced degree in engineering with extensive R&D experience so I might know a thing or two.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    27,624

    Default Re: also

    Well, I was wondering what this stuff was good for and why I should use it. A friend of mine jumped right into it and he ususally doesn't jump into anything, very often, so I was wondering what the real benefits of using it would be. Thanks for the discussion.

    It seems like some here think it's the best thing for bees since TM and others think that you shouldn't just use it because others are and others that you shouldn't use it because you don't really know what it does to your bees. Is that about the gist of it?

    Who is using it? Any commercial outfits? Only sideliners and smaller outfits?

    Why are you using it? Are your bees missing something essential in their diet? Why?

    What is it doing for your bees?

    When are you applying it?

    How and at what consentrations are you applying it?

    Where in your hive are you spraying HBH?

    Who, what, why, when ,how. That aught to about cover it.
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


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