Page 6 of 11 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 204
  1. #101
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Anderson County, Texas
    Posts
    1,254

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    In the 2004 study, the researchers found that when laying drone eggs, the hybrid AHB/EHB were more inclined to lay AHB drones/queens even when the queens were AI'd with equal amounds of AHB/EHB semen. They had no logical reason for this, but rather just noted the anomaly.

    I think the most likely reason (conclusory allegation) for random appearances of AHB in northern states would be from queens raised or bred in any area where AHB drones might be present, and then any resulting supercedure could result in AHB queens.

    Also, another consideration is, that suppose you have a queen that has been bred to a AHB drone, then that colony, which would cluster, could preserve the AHB genetic to overwinter, and then produce AHB queens the next fall. Another conclusory allegation, based upon logic only. However, I don't think (conclusory allegation), AHB would ever become 'established' as the predominant genetic bee line in an area where the winters require clustering for survival.

    With regard to the rain barrier, please read my observation in my post #56, 1st paragraph.
    "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country." Nathan Hale, 1776

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    lake geneva wi
    Posts
    458

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by TwT View Post
    Keep in mind the bias of the stingshield site to overstate as they are selling a product for EMS persons vs. AHB mostly. I bought a couple to take to Brazil and keep a few around. Would have bought more but the price is absurdly high.

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Lake City, Texas
    Posts
    11

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Not only are they that bad, they are worse. I live in rual San Patricio County. Two years ago I hired a guy to clear some of the brush off my property and in short order he came running out swatting at something screaming bees bees! Well I did not know anything about bees really and suspected that they may be AHB. He had jumped off his dozer, engine running and booked it out of there. I got in the phonebook and began calling around to see if there was someone who could come out and find where hive was. I found a guy, but he wanted $300 to come out. I thought that was just outrageious, so we managed to get the dozer shut down and I got on ebay and found a full bee suit. I ordered it and it came within a few days. I found the hive in an abandoned steam boiler that had about 4 three quarter inch threaded ports in it. The bees were just incredably mean. I would get within about 6 - 8 feet from them and they would attack! And follow me for hundreds of yards without giving up. They would slam into me and sting my leather gloves and head gear. My gloves were covered with stingers and venom. I am not exagerating at all. I was so facinated by them. Just amazed. I plugged the holes with expanding foam. No more bee problem.

    I figured, well I have a bee suit, maybe I should get a hive of good bees. I found David Burns, Long Lane Honey Bees, web site offering bee lessons. I now have three hives this year. I've been working these with only a veil, no gloves and short sleeve shirt.

    My advice about AHB is do not keep any. In Texas it is against the law to keep AHB. Check the statues. You may be held liable. They will go after the kids, pets, livestock and you.

    My 2 cents,
    Mark
    Lake City, Tx

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    lake geneva wi
    Posts
    458

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    How long ago was this? The experience has been that the first few waves
    are the worst then they settle down once they get established. If you were impressed by one colony then think about what happens when you get an
    AHB yard upset. They will all join in the attack in which case you just have to shut down and evacuate. Some days are just not possible to work them. Period.

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    3,588

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    I think there may be some truth to the idea that, over time, even the pure AHB in South America have become more manageable, probably due to selective breeding.

    However, the main reason that the human-AHB situation improves is that people adapt. They get more careful about where they put managed hives, and people learn that a feral hive needs to be respected.

    There are still plenty of very aggressive bees all over south and central america. It's not like they suddenly get more gentle after the first year or two with no change in genetics.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    3,588

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    I have tried to find the map that Dewey Caron presented to our bee club last year that predicted that AHB could spread to Nebraska. I cannot find it on the internet. However, I did come across this article that includes a different AHB prediction map. This one shows the bees barely make it into Kansas. I hope this one is right:

    http://www.utahcountybeekeepers.org/...%20Release.pdf

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Barry, TX USA
    Posts
    861

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    All of these maps are flawed. My perception of them is that whoever is making them wants to show the progression of AHB through the US. In pursuit of this goal they show a county to be positive for AHB even though there was only one hive found and it was destroyed. The maps really need to show SUSTAINED presence of AHB.

    My county, Navarro county in Texas, is shown to be positive for AHB. I've been keeping bees ever since they found AHB in our county and I've yet to run into AHB. If I did, they were just a mean hive and I dealt with it. Most people say that you'll know it when you experience it so I don't think I have yet. The casual reader of one of these maps would think that Navarro county is fully populated by AHB and that is just not the case.
    When you stop learning you're dead.

  8. #108
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Anderson County, Texas
    Posts
    1,254

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by beyondthesidewalks View Post
    All of these maps are flawed.

    My perception of them is that whoever is making them wants to show the progression of AHB through the US.

    In pursuit of this goal they show a county to be positive for AHB even though there was only one hive found and it was destroyed.

    The maps really need to show SUSTAINED presence of AHB.
    Dear beyondthesidewalks:
    I think I agree with what you are trying to express? Let me just add my two cents worth, and two cents arent worth much anymore.

    The maps are flawed not because of what they actually show, but because of our perception of what they show. The maps show a confirmed case of AHB. The flaw is that they don't show a theory on the source of the AHB.

    I think we misinterpret the data given on these maps. As AHB become more established in the parts of the South and Southwest, I theorize there will be a greater chance of these bees hitching a ride on trains, trucks, and automobiles, spreading them to locations further north. However, at this time, with the current data available, I don't think they will become established outside of the habitat in which they can survive because of their tendency not to cluster.

    I totally agree that the maps are misleading in that obviously most who see the maps interpret them as being established populations, when this simply is not true. My guess is that had I sent in a sample of my AHB colonies, then my county would have been listed as a AHB county, even though the source was known and dealt with.

    I agree they show the counties to be positive even if the AHB was an anomoly for the area. Perhaps two maps should be presented. One showing confirmation of AHB, to elevate awareness of the problem, but another showing only sustainable populations. Thereby allowing beekeepers to adopt appropriate management techniques for those areas. These areas then should also have a higher designation of funds for monitoring the problem.

    Thanks for the excellent observations beyondthesidewalks.
    "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country." Nathan Hale, 1776

  9. #109
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Anderson County, Texas
    Posts
    1,254

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilV View Post
    I did come across this article that includes a different AHB prediction map. This one shows the bees barely make it into Kansas. I hope this one is right:

    http://www.utahcountybeekeepers.org/...%20Release.pdf
    Thanks for the Map Neil, I especially like the NASA map which shows probablility of sustainable levels based upon environmental factors.
    "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country." Nathan Hale, 1776

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    lake geneva wi
    Posts
    458

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Same here thanks. Fascinating. I had no idea they had did NASA map like this. I don't see any citations for the group that put it together. Guess I could contact the UT expert Danielle Downey. I would like to see how the mapping would look for similar areas of South America. Maybe they have already done it. I would think it would predict an area like Buenos Aires province had high survivibilty but the reality is something different. Also, I think some of the statments re. EHB interbreeding are not "borne out" looking at the South American experience.

    Did anyone look at Deknow's quotes about Kerr in the Madison bee lab?
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...482#post453482
    This was all new to me and really interesting.
    Last edited by JBG; 08-17-2009 at 12:25 PM.

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Barry, TX USA
    Posts
    861

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by DRUR View Post
    I especially like the NASA map which shows probablility of sustainable levels based upon environmental factors.
    I agree with you, Danny. The NASA map indicates some of what you've been trying to get across. While the other maps show a steady progression of AHB through the country with probable expansion across the nation, the NASA map shows that they'll be somwhat confined to where they are now. I like that.
    When you stop learning you're dead.

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Claremont, NH, USA
    Posts
    783

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Unless you buy into 'An Inconvenient Truth', in which case I'LL be dealing with them up here in New England in a few years.

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    Bill

    p.s. I guess in all seriousness, if we really ARE entering into an overall global warming period, regardless of whether or not the cause is the activities of man or just a natural pattern, and if it DOES mean that most sections of the US become warmer and, possibly, drier (not all, up here in NE it is predicted we could become colder and wetter, because of wind pattern changes), then it COULD mean that AHB will be able to migrate farther north.

    Not sure any of this really matters. The Brazilians have adapted fine to the new bees and I am sure we will, too, if necessary. From what I have been reading, many already have.
    “If you want to gather honey, don't kick over the beehive.” - Dale Carnegie

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    lake geneva wi
    Posts
    458

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    In places like Brazil or Central America there is no choice about AHB now.
    As I posted earlier, hobby and sideliner beekeeping is a very different situation in those nations as well as how commercial works. Forget about backyard suburban or urban beekeeping for a start.

  14. #114
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Barry, TX USA
    Posts
    861

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by bnatural View Post
    Unless you buy into 'An Inconvenient Truth', in which case I'LL be dealing with them up here in New England in a few years.
    Oh great! Now we're going to season an already sensationalized and politically charged issue with another sensatinalized and even more politically charged issue.

    The global warming crowd doesn't have much credibility at the moment. This year many places were colder than normal and their excuse for their being wrong is that the colder weather was because of global warming.

    The earth has gotten warmer in places. It's cooled in others. Ice cap has retreated in certain polar regions and advanced in others. The 1800s had a "mini" ice age. The earth changed long before man dominated. It will continue to change. Bees and beekeeping will continue to change. Let's keep it real.
    When you stop learning you're dead.

  15. #115
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    lake geneva wi
    Posts
    458

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Yes lets not mix global warming with this. AHB alone are worthy of several different threads. E.g. AHB keeping, AHB and organic products, AHBs in the US, etc.

  16. #116
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Lake City, Texas
    Posts
    11

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    JBG,

    I was incorrect to say the bee suit came in a few days, if memory serves me, it was a few weeks. The AHB did settle down during the cold mornings and days, but otherwise remained very aggresive. I would walk toward their direction and when I got within a few yards they found me.

    The hive did get rolled around by the dozer, so they were very disturbed. I called the county and they sent a guy to check them out, and he came out of the brush running too!

    Like a previous post, when you got'em you know right away.

    For those interested: http://www.texasento.net/Brachygastra.htm

    I also have a hive of Mexican honey wasps in a tree about the size of a basketball. Have you run across any of these before? Bees are not the only insect to produce honey. I thought about destroying them, but they don't seem to be much of a problem. A person can gather the honey from these, but in some places the honey is actually poisioned by the wasps from a variety posionous plant.

    I found them again while hand clearing the brush with a chain saw. I was about to cut the tree that they were in and noticed them. I am **** glad that I noticed them. I am sure I would have been stung head to toe because there were hundreds of them! Everything around here either bites, stings or sticks you!
    Last edited by gulfbreeze; 08-17-2009 at 01:52 PM. Reason: addl info

  17. #117
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Marlin, Texas
    Posts
    134

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Gulfbreeze,

    When I first moved to Texas 12 or so years ago, one of my co-workers told me, "Texas has at least 1 of each kind of bug ever made". I think he was correct.

    Walt
    "Having Fun with Nature"
    www.rgf-tx.com

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    lake geneva wi
    Posts
    458

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Wow, Mexican Honey Wasps....

    I am getting an education about Texas. So that old standard quote about bees
    are the only insects to make food for humans is incorrect.

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Claremont, NH, USA
    Posts
    783

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Aw, you guys are no fun.

    While I couldn't resist poking a stick at the sleeping bear, the climate issue, even if unresolved, does have some impact on the discussion. For example, the NASA map that shows projected advancement north (which I like, BTW), what data were used to create that map - historical weather data or projected weather data? It's like the zone hardiness maps I see posted around the internet for planting purposes. Some sites show the newer map, which moves most of the warmer zones farther north, but some still show the older map to be conservative.

    To try to answer my own question, I googled around a bit. Excerpted from the Proceedings of the American Bee Research Conference, 2009:
    http://www.extension.org/pages/Proce...nference,_2009


    "9.Esaias, W.E.k, R. Wolfek, C. Jarnevichl & T. Stohlgrenl - CHANGING NECTAR FLOWS, CLIMATE, AND AHB’S: NASA’S HONEYBEENET -.....
    Trends in the phenology (seasonality) of nectar flows derived from volunteer scale hive records shows a high correlation to trends in satellite vegetation phenology in the Mid-Atlantic, both advancing by about 0.5 d/yr since the early 1980’s......Distribution models based on the locations of the AHB, combined with climate GIS layers and seasonal satellite vegetation information provide better understanding of the suitable habitat of the AHB, and how it may change. Initial MaxEnt model results for the US using USDA county-wide data are consistent with current and some predicted ranges of the AHB and show significant improvement when annual bulk vegetation data are included. The runs show a negative relationship between the AHB habitat and fractional tree cover. However, their coarseness underscores the need for precise AHB location points (latitude-longitude). Preliminary runs using occurrence points supplied by officials and scientists from several states are encouraging but are potentially misleading until all presence states are included."

    If I understand this correctly, one of the data inputs into the NASA map is the information provided to HoneyBeeNet (http://honeybeenet.gsfc.nasa.gov/) from people like, well, me. That's a scary thought.

    For those, who can provide scale/weight data to HBN, but don't, the more data that is entered, the more useful (less 'misleading') the information will be.


    Bill
    “If you want to gather honey, don't kick over the beehive.” - Dale Carnegie

  20. #120
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Cleveland, Texas
    Posts
    1,378

    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by DRUR View Post
    ......Also, another consideration is, that suppose you have a queen that has been bred to a AHB drone, then that colony, which would cluster, could preserve the AHB genetic to overwinter, and then produce AHB queens the next fall. Another conclusory allegation, based upon logic only. However, I don't think (conclusory allegation), AHB would ever become 'established' as the predominant genetic bee line in an area where the winters require clustering for survival.
    I have done a good bit of study on AHB genetics. Your conclusions here don't appear to be quite accurate.

    1. Unless a queen is of Apis m. scutellata matriline (mtDNA) she will not produce Africanized drones since drones are haploid and 100% of their genetic material comes from the Queen's DNA. EHB queens mated with AHB drones cannot produce queens with A. m. scutella mtDNA and when isolated in an area where the drones are predominately EHB, the colony eventually will pretty much return to EHB genetics. A small portion of Africanized genes will remain, but they are already present in the DNA of all feral and commercial bees in this country. Generally speaking AHB's with European matrilines (mtDNA) are not nearly as aggressive. You get the nuclear version when AHB queens with African matrilines are mated with drones produced by queens with the same matrilines. These bees will be much closer to the original A. m. scutellata. The biggest danger to managed hives in AHB territory are usurpation swarms with African matriline queens. These small swarms will attach themselves to the bottom of a hive and their workers will gradually invade the hive and kill the EHB queen, after which the rest of the hive will readily accept the AHB queen and within 6 weeks, the workers will be replaced with hyper aggressive AHB workers.

    2. AHB can and will cluster, documented overwintered colonies of AHB (African matrilines) have been found as far north as Albuquerque, NM. I am not sure where you got the information that they don't cluster, but it is not correct. They survive quite well in the mountains around Tuscon, AZ where winter temperatures easily drop to levels that would kill them if they did not. I would suggest that their unsuitability for survival in more Northern areas is related more to their frequent swarming and absconding behaviors among other factors.
    "The UNKNOWN, huh? That would be SNORBERT ZANGOX over in Waycross."

Page 6 of 11 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads