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  1. #41
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    mr smith writes:
    You are again conflating the name for the thing with the thing itself.

    tecumseh:
    lauguage and mental constructs are symbolic... either only loosely represents physical reality. any number of variable (at least two defined by einstein) might vary how we perceive and define physical reality.

    are you suggesting that man thinking is not symbolic?

    then mr smith continues with:
    So asserting the existence of a reality that is independent of what people think of it is something you want to derisively characterize as "quaint" and "highly misleading"? Are you serious? If that's the case, then I'll plead guilty. Yes, I DO believe reality exists apart from our ideas about it. Pretty wacky, huh?

    tecumseh:
    why yes it is... such thinking would have been quite mainstream 100 years ago but will get you no gold stars given what we know today. betrand russell (a history of western philisophy) attacts the question quite directly and pretty much lines out who is currently 'winning' in regards to this basic question (which has been around at least as long as the ancient greeks).

    then mr smith writes:
    You object to the term political correctness? LOL. I can think of a lot of other terms for those people who attempt to shut down debate on these questions by means of personal attacks, but none of them are so polite. This reminds me of the line in the Woody Allen movie "Annie Hall":

    tecumseh:
    proving a point by presenting some line from a movie (fictional I would guess???) does not give much weight to your argument. given the movie is likely (haven't seen it, so I am guessing here) a comody and fiction (by definition somewhat to highly removed from reality) suggest you are guilty of exactly the kind of thinking (actually the lack thereof) of what you are accusing others.

    tecumseh:
    Actually though, political is exactly the right word, since it's apparent that those reality-deniers who claim that races are socially constructed do so for political, not scientific, reasons. They are frightened by the implications of the idea that human races exist, differing in outward form, temperament, aptitudes, and abilities, much like European and African bees do.

    tecumseh:
    perhaps you might first want to establish some definition for the term politcally correct with which we could all agree??? if not??? then you are only intermixing the thinking of science with current strategies of political spin to obtain some political advantage.

    once again your constant 'attempt' to falling back on the vague term of political correctness speaks volumes about your thinking (well actually the lack thereof).

    then mr smith adds:
    The evolutionary origin of the European bee is not germane. The point is that the two races of bees are different NOW. Further, they would continue to be different NOW, regardless of the perceptions or even the existence of man.

    tecumseh:
    I gave you a simple 'real world' example which you have decided to reject. quite obviously if man didn't exist we wouldn't be having this conversation and the 'differences' (if they exist) would not matter one whit.

    it is quite evident (at least to me) that you are highly confuse into believing that mental model (constructs) are reality or politcal spin (which is my own personal view of what 'politically correct' actually represents) might in someway alter these constructs. that is.... by altering the rhetoric you might in someway alter how folks think (which is by itself quite a viable idea).

    then mr smith writes:
    "Reality is that which remains after you stop believing in it."

    tecumseh:
    another meaningless and unidentified quote. your argument grows constantly weaker.

  2. #42
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    I thought we were discussing if africanized bees were really aggressive or not. If people just wants to fight, why dont they start a new forum with the heading " Join for a fight using complicated words ".

    i think more people are reading this thread to know about the experience of others about africanized bees, not someones fight.

  3. #43
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    Yeah, they mostly impress themselves. Some, somehow thinks it's educational. More often than not, it's just a thread stopper for everyone else and they move on to better subjects and conversations.

    Carry on.................
    "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." Winston Churchill

  4. #44
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    Here's another map that indcates the spread:

    http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/doc...d=11059&page=6

    Also, one problem with this and similar maps is that if they don't test for AHB in an area then the map does not show any AHB. For example, they quit keeping records in Texas by the time they moved to North Texas. They did not jump across North Texas to Oklahoma.

    For anybody who is really interested in this topic or who lives where AHB may invade in the near future, I recommend reading Africanized Honeybees in the Americas by Dewey Caron.

    I don't want to get into a debate about race or epistimology, but I would add that in bees aggression is 100% genetic. Of course given environmental effects can make a hive calmer or rowdier. However, the underlying behavior is gentically programmed. You can't send them to anger management classes, after all.

    At least as of the late 1970s some dude did his PhD dissertation by doing behavior studies and regression analysis on bee agression and genetics. He concluded that there are probably a total of eight genes that affect aggressiveness in bees. The good news is that for most of those genes the aggressioin gene is recessive. I recently did a post in the bee breeding section asking if there was more current info on this, and nobody really had much new to say.

    The bad news, as far as AHB is concerned is that:

    1. Aggession genes are much more common in AHB.

    2. Where AHB really are more suited to the environment, they tend to take over and eliminate the EHB altogether. From Brazil up to Mexico, there was very little hybridization between AHB and EHB. The AHB took over completely. However, EHB did poorly in that area and they did not even swarm, so AHB had huge advantage. Of course, that is why they imported African bees into Brazil in the first place. Going south into Argentina, the climate is more temperate/European, and there was a place with some mixing of races and hybridization. That then tapered out to an area where there are all EHB. This will happen in N. America, and the best guess is that Kansas/Nebraska will be the dividing line between AHB/EHB (according to info. in a talk by Dewey Caron in March of this year).

    3. A given hive can be hot when the queen has mated with only some AHB drones. The AHB sperm can create a percentage of workers that, due to aggressiveness, get the whole hive into attack mode (or at least more worked up than a EHB hive would be).

    That's all I've got,

    Neil

  5. #45
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    josethayil:
    i think more people are reading this thread to know about the experience of others about africanized bees, not someones fight.

    tecumseh:
    I am sorry to have interrupted the entertainment value of this thread. I am saddened that somefolks here quite often times confuse correcting someone's poorly reseached term paper with some fight or conflict.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    I have a small apiary going in Teresopolis Brazil. About 12 colonies. All bees in Brazil are AHB and there is alot of fiction being spun here. Hitting your veil so hard that venom comes out, swarming on you for 100 yards, inspect the brood and all He.. breaks loose, etc. I can tell you the basic K. Delaplane entry on AHB in First Lessons in Beekeeping is very accurate. No bs. Honey production and quality is superb and completely chemical free, which is the big selling point for Brazilian honey right now. The biggest source of truly organic honey on earth. http://www.panoramio.com/photo/9097662 Note the lack of gloves.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Ross, I sense you are protecting a TX queen selller? I am not intending ton bash southern queen producers as there are many good beekeepers in the south. I'm just speaking from 50 plus years of experience and knowledge and have no axe to grind.
    Actually I'm not protecting anyone. I don't buy or sell queens, but I do raise my own. I am surrounded by counties deemed AHB, but have seen no tendency toward aggressive hives in 10+ years of raising my own queens. Most of east Texas and across the deep south has not seen any appreciable AHB influence. The southwest, including west Texas, NM, AZ, CA have. Not a lot of queen breeders in the desert southwest compared to the southeast. Painting them all with the same brush is irresponsible bashing, and self serving it seems. If you have facts, trot them out. Otherwise it's just idle bashing.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by josethayil View Post
    Instead of saying they are agressive over and over again, why dont people atleast try to use selective breeding to get a gentle strain of africanized bees will be much easier to work with.??

    Its easy to keep complaining about a problem, instead of trying to find a solution for it.

    There are a lot of africanized bees in south america which are much gentle than what is currently in north america. this was achived through selective breeding and good management skills.

    Not all africanized bees are extremely aggressive, every strain of bees have gentle bees in them. We just have to select from those to make it easy on us and others.

    Check the bees from Brazil and Argentina which were very aggressive once and how they have changed over time to bee a much gentle bee through selective breeding.............
    Pure fantasy here. The experience in Brazil is that its pointless in trying to
    EHB hybridize. Good management skills in Brazil and parts of Argentina with AHBs means beeks adapt to working with the AHB and taking advantage of the increased vigor, and health.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    I live in an area that is supposed to be taken over by AHB. I don't see anything as hot as some bees that I got from Alabama long before AHB came here or there. The hottest bees I've ever seen were the german black bees and there are tons of them here in feral hives.

    The fact is that swarms of bees are not chasing people through the woods or fields or down the streets. We are all just fine and our bees are fine too. I have a few hot hives but nothing beyond the pale. I can keep bees and it will not be AHB that may end my run as a beekeeper but a bad back.

    Quit the worrying and fighting. They are not that bad and people are sensationalizing AHB for some sort of gain.

    I'll step down from my soap box now.
    When you stop learning you're dead.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Wax View Post
    Your link doesn't work.
    Try this one:
    http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/doc...d=11059&page=6

    It is large so you must scroll down and across for the 2009 map of AHB.
    "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country." Nathan Hale, 1776

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    One thing I don't understand is the contention that since there is AHB south of the Border then the whole south will be infested, and Lordy mercy, we will be dependent on the north to raise queens for distribution. Well I ask you this, If the whole south becomes infested with AHB, what would prevent the whole middle portion of the USA from being infested, and then eventually the whole Northern portion, and then Canada.

    Let's use some facts to support this contention. It is interesting to me to note that Counties North and West and yes, even East have supposedly been Africanized, but yet notice Anderson and adjacent Cherokee County are not. Now speaking from the voice of experience (as I have extensively logged in these Texas Counties) these areas are smack dab in the middle of the East Texas Pinewoods, large area of relatively rural with low populations and vast forests.

    Seems to me before drawing the lines there needs to be some facts to support where that line will stop lest the North Pole will be over-run with AHB.

    Seems like to me that that demarkation line (at least what was proposed during the 80s when I kept bees), was about San Antonio Austin area in Texas; although they would spread further North during the warm months only to be killed out during the winter, as supposedly the AHB don't cluster during the winter.

    Also, another thing which was observed during that period of time was that these bees did not build up sufficient winter stores for survival as they were to prolific with swarming. Has this genetice feature changed?
    Last edited by DRUR; 07-26-2009 at 11:43 PM. Reason: Correct 'Not' to "Now" due to typo error
    "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country." Nathan Hale, 1776

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by DRUR View Post
    Let's use some facts to support this contention. It is interesting to me to note that Counties North and West and yes, even East have supposedly been Africanized, but yet notice Anderson and adjacent Cherokee County are not.
    If I am not mistaken they have stopped following the spread of AHB in Texas and now consider the entire state over-run with AHB. That accounts for the big gap between the Red River counties and Oklahoma. Just because your county doesn't show the progress of AHB doesn't mean that there aren't AHB in your county.

    I think that some folks out there have an opportunity to bash southern queen breeders and promote their northern queens. Others might bash southern package producers and promote their own. Yet others might do everything in their power to get the AHB made illegal so that they can make a fortune removing them. I guess I don't blame them, they're just trying to make buck. I blame those who continue to sensationalize this issue and cannot see they're being played or duped.

    The Bottom Line: AHB are not that bad. Life goes on. Don't let those who want to make a buck get you worried.
    Last edited by beyondthesidewalks; 07-27-2009 at 07:29 AM. Reason: typo
    When you stop learning you're dead.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Simple- normal honeybees are men with guns who defend as needed

    ahb are men with guns that have anger issues

    same thing, one just takes the moving object 200 yards away to be a threat, the other doesnt


    Moral of the story: Thank God for gentle bees.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Demo Spec View Post
    ahb are men with guns that have anger issues
    That's anthropomorphic. AHB are not angry just overly defensive because it has worked for them. STOP THE HYPE!!!
    When you stop learning you're dead.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Paul Jackson the Texas state bee inspector gave a very interesting talk at a convention I attended. The spread of Africanized bees occurs along the major highways where the bees hitch a ride on trucks. (Not necessarily bee trucks). It is not the migration of the colonies that spreads them rather it is mans activities.
    Plus jillions of them get shipped out for almond pollination with out restrictions. This is how they spread, but don't seem to be established outside the climatic boundaries of the sub tropics.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G. Laury View Post
    The spread of Africanized bees occurs along the major highways where the bees hitch a ride on trucks. (Not necessarily bee trucks). It is not the migration of the colonies that spreads them rather it is mans activities.
    Plus jillions of them get shipped out for almond pollination with out restrictions. This is how they spread, but don't seem to be established outside the climatic boundaries of the sub tropics.
    Exactly. I read somewhere that Florida's Ahb came on a ship. True or not, I don't know. Before I began beekeeping this year, I set out lids of honey up to two miles around my location. No bees worked this. If we are over run with Ahb where were they at. I am located in the central part of East Texas, surrounded by forests. The precise type of environment (excluding temperate region) where they would survive.

    Will they be more of a problem around south Texas? Most certainly would, drones can fly a long ways.

    Let's be logical and realistic about this.

    First, I simply can't resolve in my mind how the North can supply the queens and packagages in time to make a crop. Doesn't seem like they have enough time. Do the math. it takes 21 days to raise brood + another 7 days to start foraging. Takes 28 days to raise a queen to laying, and this takes bee resources, go figure. Takes even longer to get sufficient drone population to a breedable state. Unless you are prepared to incubate or provide AI or some other elevated procedures you're outta luck.

    Second, the biggest portion of the migratory beekeepers winter in the south, and for very good reason as the winters are harsh in the north.

    Third, they go north to make there honey crop as the north has a much shorter growing season. But the good Lord has compensated them for longer days during the summer months. Bees can work longer and gather more honey. During the summer the weather is not as harsh for as long. I have seen over 40 straight days of 100+ temperatures 10+ of those days were 110+, and I am in the central part of East Texas with high humidity.

    Fourth, can AHB infect these queens and packages? Yes, and those producers have a responsibility to institute management procedures to be sure that this is kept to a minimum.

    Fifth, if a nothern beekeeper (migratory or otherwise), has a colony that appears to be africanized, they have a responsibility to rectify that problem, and not to bring your africanized bees back down south.

    Sixth, one of the things that makes commercial beekeeping so successful in this country is the different regions help each other. Go figure, we need each other.
    "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country." Nathan Hale, 1776

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    [QUOTE=DRUR;448684]

    Fifth, if a nothern beekeeper (migratory or otherwise), has a colony that appears to be africanized, they have a responsibility to rectify that problem, and not to bring your africanized bees back down south.

    ================================================== ====
    Only if you offer a warranty about not sending them up here in thre first place. Besides, you still don't get it, it does not matter what kind of war you want to declare on AHBs in the south. It will be as successful as the war on drugs. You might as well get used to them and start taking advantage of their positive aspects just like everywhere else in the western hemisphere

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    [QUOTE=JBG;448696]
    Quote Originally Posted by DRUR View Post

    Fifth,they have a responsibility to rectify that problem, and not to bring your africanized bees back down south.

    ================================================== ====
    Besides, you still don't get it, it does not matter what kind of war you want to declare on AHBs in the south. It will be as successful as the war on drugs.

    You might as well get used to them and start taking advantage of their positive aspects just like everywhere else in the western hemisphere
    JBG seems like you got a laugh out of my last comment, as it was meant to be somewhat as a joke; although not the part concerning our responsibility in dealing with AHB.

    I think we are/have been successful on the war against AHB. They are under control in most of the country. Ahb successes will be limited the further away from their demakation line.

    I will not get used to them and I will destroy them every chance I get.

    The only positive aspect of Ahb that I am interested in is when they freeze to death during winter time.

    This is not only propaganda about their dangers. Go to the Agricultural Research Center and read about them here:
    http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/doc...d=11059&page=2

    Look at the picture where the beekeeper is covered up. This is unacceptable behaviour around people and colonies like this are dangerous and should be destroyed pronto. By first dividing and then requeening.

    Also I don't believe the fairy tales about large honey production. I do believe that they are very active foragers, but their tendency to swarm numerous time a year destroys any advantage gained. In closing all I can say is
    "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country." Nathan Hale, 1776

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    So in this war are you willing to introduce even more pesticide into our enviornment toxic to all bees to destroy them? You really want to encourage that hysteria?
    Also, I don't need to read any articles from the USDA or look at any other sources about AHBs. If you follow this thread you will see that I am keeping them in Brazil and my information comes first hand from working with them in the field. http://www.flickr.com/photos/27817825@N07/2705585596/
    Last edited by Barry; 07-27-2009 at 01:33 PM. Reason: Excessive quotes - Warning!!

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

    [QUOTE=DRUR;448727]
    Quote Originally Posted by JBG View Post


    I think we are/have been successful on the war against AHB. They are under control in most of the country.
    Right, this map is the picture of success. Next you can tell my about how we really won in Vietnam.

    http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/doc...d=11059&page=6

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