fumigillin-b drench method

[Trevor Mansell]

Does anyone use Fumigillin-b in a drench method on a commercial level? If so how do you mix it?

[honeyshack]

okay, just trying to be funny here, is that like drenching a calf? Do they make tubes small enough? How many litres in the belly?
sorry could not resist, too many years cattle i guess...
i have no answer to your question...sorry

[Keith Jarrett]

mix one 9.5 bottle to five gallons of syrup, one cup per hive.

[nelgknat2001]

I'm not a large commercial beekeeper but do drench my hives with Fumigillin-b. The mixing ratio that keith stated is how I do it. With my drench gun I'm able to measure amounts being applied and at the end of my gun has a broom spraying pattern.

[Trevor Mansell]

mix one 9.5 bottle to five gallons of syrup, one cup per hive.

How many times do you hit them?

[Keith Jarrett]

How many times do you hit them?

Well Trevor, the book says 4 times one week apart, but I do mine a couple times ten days apart.

Trevor, I don't think any of us know, I have had good results at ten days apart.

[Allen Dick]

There have been various opinions about the ideal concentration of the active ingredient in fumagillan syrup for drenching.

Some beekeepers think that an increased concentration above the recommended mixture for non-drench feeding is indicated. Others think the recommended concentration is fine.

I tend to agree with using the recommended mixture, as I really do not know the effects of forcing bees to ingest a concentrated dose.

Are there benefits to increased doses? Or are there toxic effects on the bees subjected to a heavier than normal dose?

Besides being off-label, if there is no proven benefit to using an overly concentrated solution of this expensive (and toxic) drug, why do it?

Theory? Hypothesis? The recommended levels are tested for toxicity and effectiveness. Going outside that band could be risky.

I realise that the argument can be made that with the normal application, the bees are sitting on treated syrup containing a greater total load of the drug which is consumed over a long period and this way, the bees only hold it for a short time, and the total amount of drug is less.

Consider this, though. Drugs are prescribed for a measured dose over a measured time. If taking an antibiotic, you don't just take five pills right now if the doctor says to take one a day for five days. You would possibly be quite sick and probably not get any extra benefit. Fumigillan is normally taken over time, and the drench idea is based on the idea that a quick shot gets most of the disease right off due to the forced ingestion and then subsequent doses are to hit any residual infection that may have been missed and new infection. It is a theory and depends on the true action of the drug. Apparently it works, so the theory may be correct.

With the drench all the bees get some, and right away, since they all clean one another. With normal feeding, maybe only some bees get the full dose, since they are the ones storing it, but eventually all bees get some as the syrup is consumed, so the distribution is slower and not universal or all at once. Perhaps using the standard method, most bees actually get lower doses than those involved in storing it, but over longer time spans, and that lower dose is apparently effective.

Actually, this is an arguement for not using a highly concentrated ration for dosing, since all the bees are being overdosed.

I'd go with the normal mixture, on the label. As for frequency, I don't think it is critical, but the thing to remember is that once damaged, a bee does not recover, even if new damage is prevented, so the idea is to treat over several generations, although I have heard good comments about single treatments.

Check out

http://tinyurl.com/d2tkdb

http://www.medivet.ca/medivet/guidel...20imperial.pdf

http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/fumidilb.html

[JBJ]

Having seen Keith's bees I would say the proof is in the pudding as they say. Medivet has been advertising a 75 fold safety margin on the dose lately.

[Allen Dick]

Having seen Keith's bees I would say the proof is in the pudding as they say. Medivet has been advertising a 75 fold safety margin on the dose lately.

Are you saying 75 X the dose? Could you expand on that a bit?

I'll be talking to Medhat shortly and get caught up on his latest thoughts.

I wrote to Steve Pernal to try to get his experimental results, since he tried various doses.

[Ian]

>>my drench gun I'm able to measure amounts being applied and at the end of my gun has a broom spraying pattern.


great idea!

One advantage of using this method for spring time treatments is this treatment totally eliminates the risk of contaminating the summer honey crop.

[JBJ]

In Medivet's recent add on pg 6 of Bee Culture, Jan issue it states "Non-toxic to bees--75 fold safety margin"

I am not advocating one way or the other, although I would rather not have to use the stuff, however it would be foolhardy to let Nosema rage unchecked through an entire operation. I have stated many times that I believe we will have many alternatives to Fumagillan now that we understand it to be a fungus and not a protozoa. For starters we already have Nosevit at fraction of the cost and derived from tree bark tannins. I suspect tea tree and other fungicidal oils may hold some promise. I also hope that we can isolate Nosema tolerant stocks and actually isolate the traits involved in the bee genome.

[Allen Dick]

Thanks. I guess I did not read very well .

I understand now. Anyhow, I'm looking further into it, since there seems to be a lot of assuming going on and Steve and Adony have done the work. I expect to see them both on the 10th and 11th.

BEEKEEPING FOR THE FUTURE IPM WORKSHOP
Tuesday and Wednesday February 10 - 11, 2009
Registration includes lunch and coffee for both days, $152.25 (One Canadian dollar is 80c US)
Room Rates $109 Group 4990
Executive Royal Inn, West Edmonton
10010 – 178 Street
Edmonton AB T5S 1T3
780 484 6000
Toll Free 1.800.661.4879

BTW, everyone from everywhere is welcome. If anybody has never seen snow, here's a great chance. Edmonton in February!

International flights come to Edmonton from the major airports all over the U.S., and usually there are top-flight speakers. There is also some local content, though, but the famous West Edmonton Mall is nearby.

Actually, here is the agenda. I don't see the Beaverlodge crew on there, but I do see some other interesting speakers.

http://albertabeekeepers.org/documen...gendadraft.pdf

[Trevor Mansell]

Well Trevor, the book says 4 times one week apart, but I do mine a couple times ten days apart.

Trevor, I don't think any of us know, I have had good results at ten days apart.

Thanks, I'll hit them again in 10 days.

[jean-marc]

The reason Keith and all for drenching bees 4 times at 1 week intervals is it is the method that the Spanisish researchers have found to be effective against Nosema Ceranae (pers.comm. with Willy Baumgartner/Medivet). Apparently if you do you this and if your bees had Nosemae Cerana they no longer will have a detectable level of spores.

Jean-Marc

[Allen Dick]

From a researcher:

> Based on our spring 2008 experiment using packages, where we evaluated 0.5, 1 and 2 x label doses, we saw no evidence of increased efficacy with increased dose.

I hope to be able to provide more background shortly, but this seems to indicate that when drenching, the label proportions are adequate when drenching and that using greater concentrations has no beneficial effect, except on the supplier's bottom line

[Reed Honey]

Allend, these guys IMO are not increasing the dose they are giving the proper dose just using less syrup to carry it.. One 9 gram bottle is still being used to treat around 100 hives.. Someone correct me if I am wrong. Lets try and keep this simple as beekeeping is already tough enough as it is. Kenny

[Allen Dick]

In my experience, beekeepers very often get confused when mixing drugs. The various weights and volumes and conversions are a minefield, and sometimes instrructions are incomplete or require assuming, and we all know about assumptions...

I have talked to beekeepers, not becessarily here, who think they need to base the mixture on so much per colony and not so much per gallon (or liter).

The conversation I am having with the researcher seems to me to indicate that there is no advantage to that, but language can be ambiguous, so I am double-checking. So far, it appears that mixing according to the label -- so much drug to so much syrup -- is adequate.

[Gene Weitzel]

By my calculations, you would need to use one 9.5 gm bottle in 6 gallons of syrup and then treat at the rate of 1 cup per hive to be very close to the same dose. By using 5 gallons of syrup they are increasing the dosage per hive by about 18%.

9.5gm / 80 cups X 1 cup/hive = .11875 gm/hive

9.5gm / 96 cups X 1 cup/hive = .09895 gm/hive

[Allen Dick]

Well, here's where the confusion comes in.

Check out http://www.drugs.com/vet/fumagilin-b...owder-can.html
and
http://www.medivet.ca/medivet/guidel...20imperial.pdf

I presume that by a 9.5 g jar, people mean the 1lb bottle.

Each 1 lb jar contains:Fumagillin (as bicyclohexylammonium fumagillin) 9.5 g

According to label and recommendations, one such jar goes into 100 gallons of syrup.

Water-----FUMAGILIN - B------Sugar---------To treat

165 L------454 g -------------330 kg --------100-110 package colonies or 50 wintering colonies

35 L-------96 g---------------69 kg----------22 package colonies or 12 wintering colonies

8.7 L------24 g---------------17 kg----------5-6 colonies

1.8 L------5 g----------------3.6 kg----------1 colony

For N. ceranae, the Spanish recommend 4 applications of fumagillin, each application in 250 mL of syrup in a bag placed on the top bars. Each application contains 30 mg of active ingredient for a total of 120 mg of active ingredient applied per colony. They suggest this confers control for ceranae for six months.

This is a higher concentration than the label concentration, but a lower per colony dose than 190 mg /colony for wintering and higher than 95 mg / colony for packages.

[Reed Honey]

Allend, I too am having troubles and for me you are way confusing this issue.. Have you ever heard of the KISS method (keep it simple stupid) IMO this is where we as beekeepers should keep this instead of all the back and forth..Lets go with what works and go with the ones that truley have done well with there methods.. I am also like JBJ if you look at what Keith Jarrett has done this is all backed with facts and figures and bees to prove it.. ONce again I normally dont get involved with this type of post but it hits me right between the eyes as I am fighting the dirty bug in a big way right now.. Kenny