PH levels in hive?

[beemandan]

One thing that concerns me about adding various items to the mix is that, unless they are known to improve the health or nutrition of the bees, there may be unintended consequences.
Acids may interact with the other components and degrade or alter them.

This is exactly my point.

I suppose the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the development of the colony and long-term survival tells more than anything, but I have seen beekeepers add things to bee feed that they a.) do not know for sure are beneficial and b.) do not know at what levels the additives become toxic to the bees.

There may be ‘proof in the pudding’ but do we just randomly feed them stuff to see what kills them and what makes them thrive?

Yes, we do know the impact.
Dan, your implied statement speaks for itself.

Ok, let me rephrase my sentence. ‘I have no idea how lemon juice or citric acid (or any other pH lowering additive), used in a beekeeper's concoction will impact their bees...short or long term.’
So, Keith, what is the impact. And how do we know it?
And, Keith, what is it that you think I implied?

[Keith Jarrett]

Well..Well....

Don't want to get hit by the cross fire here. LOL

But does this make any since to you all

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s...t=100_2832.jpg

That was in the middle of January of this year.

I know were still loosing 3-5% over winter, dang were just going to have live with it.

I know, I don't know what I'm putting in these hives to make them look so lethargic, maybe it's just luck.

OK... I'm under the bus.... leter rip. lol

[irwin harlton]

........overcrowding

[HVH]

I just finished reading the previous posts on this thread and find the discussion interesting. It seems to me, though, that it is much more complicated than just pH. If you use pH as a measure of acidity it may be very misleading. Since pH is a measure of free H+ ions it doesn't really tell you very much about how much of a weak acid is present. As an example, if you take a strong citric acid solution and add a few drops of concentrated HCl to it the pH won't change. If you add the same amount of HCl to water the pH drops drastically (this is why people measure titratable acidity). Same goes for pollen and sugar. Both pollen and sugar will have their own buffering capacities that will resist changes in pH. So how much organic acid should one add to reach a target pH? With table sugar, I imagine acid hydrolysis of the sugar over time will cause pH changes over time (Also temperature dependent). If the proteins in pollen break down over time the amino acids and peptides produced could effect pH. What about oxidation and reduction of carbohydrates and proteins as well as free radical formation? How about the effects of temperature on pH?
I don't have any value judgments or any expertise regarding bee nutrition so my comments are only directed at concepts.

[Allen Dick]

Thanks for expanding the topic from simple pH and outlining some of the many considerations that go beyond that simple measure.

One interesting thought along that line is that adding acids to sugars results in HMF, according to what I have heard. HMF is bad for bees.

Some people will not use HFCS in patties because they are worried about HMF, and maybe some other things. My thinking is that so little is HFCS would be onsumed from that source compared to total carbohydrate diet that any amount of HMF in HFCS would be negligible.

Nonetheless, some avoid HFCS for protein supplement making and use sugar instead -- then add acids to the mix!

[gingerbee]

Samak, Check out this study that showed acidifying syrup had no effect on nosema:http://www.apimondia.org/apiacta/slo...n/forsgren.pdf

Thanks for sharing this study. As a beginner beekeeper I am just learning and would rather manage my bees based on sceince rather than suggestion/opinion. There's just too much room for error otherwise.

[deknow]

Although this study does not talk about ph specifically, it is entirely possible (dare i say probable?) that ph is one of the factors in effect. This points to michael bush's post in this thread regarding microflora:

Suppression of growth rate of colony-associated fungi by high fructose corn syrup feeding supplement, formic acid, and oxalic acid"
yoder, christensen, croxall, tank, and sammataro
journal of apiultural research and bee world 47(2): 126-130 (2008)

the last sentence of the summary:

Given the competetive nature and high-sporing (conidia) activity of these species, our results suggest that alteration or disruption of the colony mycoflora can occur by use of these compuounds. This may indicate a possible link between compund application and incidence of bee fungal pathogens.

deknow

[Allen Dick]

I'd be embarassed to have my name associated with such a speculative, marginally significant and abstract statement. What were they thinking? A good honey flow 'probably' has a similar effect!

Oh, and is this not the Commercial Beekeeping/Pollination board?

Somehow, I thought we would be dealing in hard, empirical data and real world experience here, not hypothetical, preliminary flawed studies with marginal significance.

[loggermike]

>>I am just learning and would rather manage my bees based on science rather than suggestion/opinion. There's just too much room for error otherwise.

I agree totally! It seems we need much more research done on bee nutrition.For me it comes down to having a reliable supply of strong colonies to pollinate almonds.Some years we have failed in this and tried hard to figure out what we could have done differently.
We are entering another drought year here in California.By late summer, there is going to have to be a feeding program that will allow young winter bees to be raised, with very little help from Ma Nature. Thanks to many years of scientific effort , and beeks like Keith who put a lot of effort into R and D, we aren't stumbling in the dark. But lots more needs to be done.

[deknow]

Larry, your first question, Lactic Acid fermentation process.

hi keith,

we've been doing a lot of research on this...martha gilliam's work is a good place to start.

LAB is only part of the process. the pollen starts to ferment as it is being collected, and in the first 12 hours, the fermentation is accomplished by yeasts, molds, fungi, and various bacteria.

over the course of a couple of weeks, there are 4 distinct stages of fermentation that occur, each setting the stage (and creating the environment) for the next. the beebread gradually gets more acidic over all of these stages, and each stage produces different byproducts.

it's worth noting that beebread has twice the water soluble proteins that pollen has...this is only one measured aspect.

this is a fascinating subject, and one that has been looked at by a few researchers, but not nearly enough!

deknow

[Michael Bush]

>>I'm not sure how it could be. pH is simply a measure of the acidity of chemicals...

>LAB is only part of the process. the pollen starts to ferment as it is being collected, and in the first 12 hours, the fermentation is accomplished by yeasts, molds, fungi, and various bacteria.

>...it's worth noting that beebread has twice the water soluble proteins that pollen has...this is only one measured aspect.

That's how it COULD be the cause. If you upset the balance of the yeast, mold, fungi and bacteria you upset the balance of the whole hive, and in particular the digestion of protein because you've changed what bacteria live and can live in the pollen and the hive. If the hive is malnourished because they can't digest the pollen is it going to affect the hive? Cause short-lived bees? Cause stress and weakness that could open the door for diseases?

[JohnK and Sheri]

The original questions were:
"How or does feeding pollen sub or syrup with diffrent ph levels change or control the ph levels in the hive?
The larger question is how important is this as a management tool for our current industry.
Has anyone tested pollen sub with low or high ph levels on large samples of hives and have any correlation or observations been made?"

No one disputes that when it is available honey and diverse pollen sources are the best diet for bees.
The original question was specific for pollen sub and syrup. When discussing the pros and cons of manipulating the ph, the necessity of it will come into question, but practically speaking, (and this board IS about practical applications), those of us that frequent here have little viable choice but to use these as additional tools to keep our bees healthy.
Sheri

[Keith Jarrett]

Well heck... I couldn't let Allen have all the fun.

I call this the "WOULDA-COULDA-SHOULDA" approuch.

But seriously folks, track records is really what I go by. There is so much we don't know and so many what if's.

Is my method the best way? I have no idea,could it be improved on? problably, but what I do know is that my losses are alot less than avgerage. So somewhere inbetween is the sweet spot.

Keith, with more questions than answers.

[deknow]

1. this is a discussion of ph levels in the hive. some of what has been presented is an oversimplification (LAB), and what i have posted to clarify is 100% backed up by good research for anyone that cares to persue it. i'd be happy to help out with more citations for _almost_ anyone interested. the talks ramona (my wife) has given recently at the nebraska state conference, the palm beach county (fl) conference, and the organic conference in arizona have been very well recieved by hobbyists and commercial (yes, commercial) beekeepers alike.

deknow

[Keith Jarrett]

has anyone tested pollen sub with low or high ph levels on large samples of hives and have any correlation or observations been made?".
Sheri

yes...

[loggermike]

>>Has anyone tested pollen sub with low or high ph levels on large samples of hives and have any correlation or observations been made?"
Good question. We are adding citric acid and vitamin C to our sub. I havent seen any harmful effects and in fact the bees will raise drone brood in January with 0 natural pollen coming in. But I admit it is just a guess on our part,having no data on where the 'sweet spot' is for ph. Approximating natural pollen would be a good start.
---Mike(not a hobby-I feed tons of the stuff!)

[Allen Dick]

Andy Nachbaur said "Tang" was the secret ingredient that beekeepers were using a decade or so, back. He also said that fermenting the substitute a bit was beneficial. I don't know what fermentation he meant, but he also claimed that the bees consumed supplement as a liquid, not a solid. Too bad we can't ask him.

[Keith Jarrett]

[QUOTE=loggermike;405400,having no data on where the 'sweet spot' is for ph. Approximating natural pollen would be a good start.
---Mike(not a hobby-I feed tons of the stuff!)[/QUOTE]

Alright two ton Mike.... lol

A few things, going off the top of my head, pollen comes into the hive 6-7 ph, BUT... goes threw lactic Acid fermentation process which brings it down to 3.5-4 ph. Thats when it's stored in the comb.

But if we stay on topic here, ph in pollen sub for the most part is not stored in the comb, so if we compared incoming pollen too pollen sub we would be OK at 6-7 ph, that is in a perfect world.

Remember, things change once the bees get a hold of it.

[JohnK and Sheri]

I, for one know that <feeding honey and pollen is best diet> not to be universally true. It is a gross oversimplification that needs tons of qualifiers.

Agreed it is an oversimplification and I probably should have stated "generally the most healthful".
But again, this is not the question here. Let's pick our fights, er,... discussions... in a productive manner.
Sheri

[sqkcrk]

Somehow, I thought we would be dealing in hard, empirical data and real world experience here, not hypothetical, preliminary flawed studies with marginal significance.

So, you are disappointed by the quality of the discussion because you ASSUMED something?

Maybe you should have asked your questions on Bee-L if you wanted to engage more scientific and acedemic type persons.

Then again, what do I know?