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PH levels in hive?

25K views 84 replies 17 participants last post by  deknow 
#1 ·
I was just reading Randy Olivers web site about pollen subs, and was reminded of a question that still persists for me.

PH levels in the hive, or better in different areas of the hive, ie honey, pollen, bee bread brood etc

How to measure, what ranges are good/bad and why.

How or does feeding pollen sub or syrup with diffrent ph levels change or control the ph levels in the hive?

The larger question is how important is this as a management tool for our current industry.

Has anyone tested pollen sub with low or high ph levels on large samples of hives and have any correlation or observations been made?

Thanks for the insights in advance
 
#28 ·
when you put sugar syrup, hfcs, organic acids, pollen subs, etc that have different ph levels than nectar, honey, pollen, and water, than micromanaging the ph levels in the hive is EXACTLY what you are doing...even if you choose not to measure the results.

deknow
 
#3 ·
Do you have any better ideas?

Our industry is rapidly changing and those who learn & adapt will porosper

I have found that we are consistantly lossing 30 to 40 % of hives each year and I do not like it.

Larry
 
#26 ·
If I gave you the proven data, would you be interested.
Ernie
Proven data about what?

In my opinion, as beekeepers, there are lots and lots of things that we can worry about. And every so often there is something new that we never had to worry about before, such as tacheal mites, varroa mites, nosema cerana, etc. But somehow we survive these crisees. If you survive enough of them you get to a point in your life that when another one comes along you just say to yourself, "Yup, been there done that. What else is new?", and go on doing what you can.

Keep your bees!!

I have enough to do keeping my colonies alive w/out checking each and every one of them for pH levels. What can you do about it anyway, economically speaking?
 
#7 ·
Sugar syrup has a much higher pH (6.0) than Honey (3.2 to 4.5) (Sugar is more alkali)

This affects the reproductive capability of virtually every brood disease in bees plus Nosema. They all reproduce better at pH 6.0 than at 4.5.

Try a search on any brood disease or Nosema apis or cerana and "culture" you'll find what pH they use to culture these. e.g. "AFB pH culture" as search terms in google and see what you can find. Here's an example:

"Lower pH values (equivalent to those found in honey, pollen, and brood food) drastically reduced enlargement and germ-tube production. Ascosphaera apis appears to be a pathogen highly specialized for life in honeybee larvae."--Author. Dept. Biological Sci., Plymouth Polytechnic, Drake Circus, Plymouth PL4 8AA, Devon, UK. Library code: Bb. Language: En. Apicultural Abstracts from IBRA: 4101024

The other 8,000 microorganisms that live in the are also affect by changes in pH. Using sugar syrup disrupts the ecological balance of they hive by disrupting the pH of the food in the hive and the food in the bees’ gut.

"It is well known that improper diet makes one susceptible to disease. Now is it not reasonable to believe that extensive feeding of sugar to bees makes them more susceptible to American Foul Brood and other bee disease? It is known that American Foul Brood is more prevalent in the north than in the south. Why? Is it not because more sugar is fed to bees in the north while here in the south the bees can gather nectar most of the year which makes feeding sugar syrup unnecessary?"--Better Queens, Jay Smith

This was just an observation on his part, but we know that AFB reproduces better at 6.0 than 4.5.

All of this, of course, is ignoring the nutrition of honey and it's also ignoring the opposite roller coaster of putting formic acid or oxalic acid in the hive and shifting it dramatically the other direction and killing even more beneficial microorganisms.
 
#8 ·
MB, very good post :)

We are right now trying to find what is the best path to take in regards to PH, it's easy to lower but where is the sweet spot?

In pollen, it come in at 7% to the hive, but lactates in the comb at 3.5-4%.

Anyhow nice to see some good thoughts on this SUBject. :)
 
#11 ·
Regarding pH levels, the comparison between sugar syrup and honey doesn’t seem proper. Shouldn’t it be sugar syrup to nectar? I assumed…maybe incorrectly…that most nectars were close to neutral since many, if not most plants thrive in nearly neutral soils. The lowering of pH was a product of the enzymes and other additions made in the bees’ honey stomachs. Was I wrong in my assumption?
If I’m correct, then the pH of sugar syrup is only a factor if the bees are consuming it directly rather than converting it to ‘honey’. Does anyone know what the pH of sugar ‘honey’ might be?
The hazard, to my way of thinking, of using sugar syrup in a hive is if it remains sugar syrup long enough for the various bacteria to colonize it before it’s consumed.
I suppose one answer would be to feed them syrup early enough in the season (Fall) for them to store it as reduced pH honey.
 
#13 ·
Generally speaking:
Eastern soils are acidic and western soils are alkaline because of the major difference in precipitation.
Ernie
I think that those sterotypical alkaline/acid differences on either side of PH neutral (pH 7) is generally relatively small. Soils with pH as low as that of honey would support only the most acid tolerant plants. My main point is that I believe that the pH of nectar (or syrup) is reduced by its processing by the bees. Am I wrong?
 
#17 ·
>>Using sugar syrup disrupts the ecological balance of they hive by disrupting the pH of the food in the hive and the food in the bees’ gut.

>>All of this, of course, is ignoring the nutrition of honey and it's also ignoring the opposite roller coaster of putting formic acid or oxalic acid in the hive and shifting it dramatically the other direction and killing even more beneficial microorganisms.


Wow, there is way more than meets the eye here,
 
#18 ·
Once again...just so I'm clear on what's being suggested here. Its the consensus of the posters that it is important that the pH of syrup be close to that of honey.
Why would it be important to make syrup such a low pH when nectar (natural syrup equivalent) probably isn't low?
Am I confused here? Or am I confusing others? Or....does anyone understand my point?
 
#21 ·
"Regarding pH levels, the comparison between sugar syrup and honey doesn’t seem proper. Shouldn’t it be sugar syrup to nectar? I assumed…maybe incorrectly…that most nectars were close to neutral since many, if not most plants thrive in nearly neutral soils. The lowering of pH was a product of the enzymes and other additions made in the bees’ honey stomachs. Was I wrong in my assumption?" (beemandan)

This is a good question. What is it that causes the low PH of honey? Is it caused by the enzymes from the bees' honey stomachs? Or is some nectar naturally in the lower PH range? Also, will the PH of sugar syrup become lower after the bees make honey from it?

As for the PH of sugar syrup, I made a 2:1 and found the PH to be this:
PH of sugar syrup (2:1 sugar water): 6.10
Distilled water was used.


you can use an electronic PH meter such as the one on here:
http://envcoglobal.com/catalog/product/extech-pocket-meters/exstik-ph-110-refillable-ph-meter.html
http://www.ambientweather.com/exphwareexph.html
 
#22 ·
>Once again...just so I'm clear on what's being suggested here. Its the consensus of the posters that it is important that the pH of syrup be close to that of honey.

I am simply pointing out that one of the differences between sugar syrup and honey is the pH. There are many more. If you made the pH of syrup closer to that of honey that would be one less difference.

>Why would it be important to make syrup such a low pH when nectar (natural syrup equivalent) probably isn't low?

What do you think it "probably" is? My guess is that it IS that low, but I only have available data on honey.
 
#23 ·
I am simply pointing out that one of the differences between sugar syrup and honey is the pH. There are many more. If you made the pH of syrup closer to that of honey that would be one less difference.
Michael Bush....I'm not arguing with you here. We may not see eye to eye on a number of things but that isn't necessarily the case here. I expect that nectar is much closer to pH neutral than honey. I, too, am only guessing based on what I know of plant physiology. My concern is that I wonder how many potentially problematic solutions beekeepers might find to try to make syrup unnaturally acidic and therefore similar to honey…when it may not be a honey substitute but really a nectar substitute.

>Why would it be important to make syrup such a low pH when nectar (natural syrup equivalent) probably isn't low?

What do you think it "probably" is? My guess is that it IS that low, but I only have available data on honey.
I studied horticulture. I don’t think for a moment that I know everything there is to know about plants, but what I do know doesn’t suggest that they make such a radical change in the pH of the fluids that pass through them.
What makes you think it is?

Again, I’m just wondering if we aren’t making the wrong comparison here. Shouldn’t it be syrup to nectar?
 
#29 · (Edited)
>>I have enough to do keeping my colonies alive w/out checking each and every one of them for pH levels. What can you do about it anyway, economically speaking?


If one beekeeper figures the these kind of measures is a waste of time, then pass it by,
otherwise whats the harm in discussing it?

>>How do unmanaged colonies control their pH levels?

I think what is being implyed is perhaps the treatments and or feed we supply to the hives is creating a ph problem, and perhaps its aiding in the growth and development of some diseases,
 
#31 ·
I would word this a little differently.
Their levels are what nectar, pollen and the effects of the bees enzymes on those. Which may not result in the same pH levels as what are created when processing our syrup and pollen subs.


We're not on opposite poles on this.
 
#33 ·
Ph levels

All these answers are good and heading in a good direction,thank you.

The basis for this question is to find better managemnt methods, to profit from my business.

If my understanding is correct, some pathogens thrive in different environments, ie Ph levels in the hive. Finding the sweet spot that works would be huge to control the hive and give the bees the best chance for survival.

Larry
 
#42 ·
>Ok Michael Bush...do you see my point now?

I do.

> We've got beekeepers contemplating various sorts of 'home remedies' to lower the pH of their supplemental feeds. We have no idea how lemon juice or citric acid (or any other pH lowering additive), used in a beekeeper's concoction will impact their bees...short or long term.

I agree.

>And worse yet we haven't even determined if those feeds need their pH lowered...at least not in my opinion.

I agree. My point really is that by using syrup and artificial feeds and organic acids we create a roller coaster of pH and mess up the entire microflora and microfauna of the hive. I don't think just lowering the pH of syrup will make it as nutritious as honey... but I think ONE of the problems with syrup is the pH.
 
#43 ·
Words are words. Reality is reality. Guys like Keith go by results. So do I.

Empirical tests have proiven time and again that bees fed 'artificial' diets do better than bees that are left to their own devices when the pickings are slim. As for disease, bees that are well fed show a whole lot less disease and pest damage than bees which are not supplemented in my experience.

Can these diets be improved? Of course, but even after extensive research, only slight improvements have been found. To me that says they are pretty good as they are.
 
#44 · (Edited)
Empirical tests have proiven time and again that bees fed 'artificial' diets do better than bees that are left to their own devices when the pickings are slim.
when the pickings are slim
It’d be hard to argue that starvation is better for bees than feeding syrup and subs.
 
#45 ·
It’d be hard to argue that starvation is better for bees than feeding syrup and subs.
You got it. The thing is that it is hard to know in advance when that will be. After the disaster, predictions are easier, but then it is too late, and recovery from a failure takes a long time and costs a lot, too.

With monoculture, engineered crops, weed sprays removing a lot of bee forage in crops and fence lines and ditches, there is a lot less out there for bees. Add to that the seasonal dearths that occur most places and the bees can be stressed.

Feeding is insurance. If the bees don't need it, they won't take it, but they almost always do. That tells me something.

In an ideal world we would not have to feed, but for those of us dependant on our bees surviving and thriving, who wants to take a chance?
 
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