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Thread: Vaccine for CCD

  1. #21
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    Michael.

    I agree. But having said that, if an RNAi directed against IAPV works as an effective treatment, it doesn't matter much what you and I may think.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVH View Post
    Michael.
    if an RNAi directed against IAPV works as an effective treatment, it doesn't matter much what you and I may think.
    an effective treatement for what?

    we have hit a logical roadblock here.

    if ccd is iapv, then there is no need to study what ccd is.

    since not all cases offically designated as ccd have tested positive for iapv, then we know that what we are calling "ccd" is not always iapv...even if it is in some cases.

    does rnai for iapv "cure" or "prevent" ccd from other causes?

    do we simply say that ccd is not ccd if it is not caused by iapv? so what is the cause in those cases? is rnai for iapv effective for some unknown reason in these cases?

    deknow

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    an effective treatement for what?

    we have hit a logical roadblock here.

    if ccd is iapv, then there is no need to study what ccd is.

    since not all cases offically designated as ccd have tested positive for iapv, then we know that what we are calling "ccd" is not always iapv...even if it is in some cases.

    does rnai for iapv "cure" or "prevent" ccd from other causes?

    do we simply say that ccd is not ccd if it is not caused by iapv? so what is the cause in those cases? is rnai for iapv effective for some unknown reason in these cases?

    deknow
    I don't trust any current diagnosis of CCD. On the other hand if people that believe they have CCD purchase Remebee and they think it helped, then people will start to believe that IAPV is causal even if it isn't.

    Beeologics infected colonies with IAPV (not sure how they grew virus and verified purity) and found that they had CCD like symptoms. They then fed Remebee and found a significant reduction of bee death.

    I think all of you guys that are being critical would benefit from reading the paper. I have no interest in defending Remebee or an IAPV association to CCD. The paper is available to read and if you want to criticize the study I will join in -> I think it was a terrible paper.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVH View Post
    Have you been reading the other posts on this thread? You are completely missing the point - if Beeologics makes an RNAi that cures most, if not all, of the CCD symptoms it makes absolutely no difference what the causative agent/s is/are.
    I don't mind discussing microbiology or immunology but I am having a difficult time seeing the connection to Beeologics Remebee. If you haven't already, I suggest you read the primary literature link I provided earlier before you go on the attack.
    I apologize to you HVH. I am sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you or attack. Please accept my sincere apology.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Jenner did it in 1798 with small pox. Viruses hadn't even been discovered yet.

    True. But he had a several thousand year precedence of (since at least 1000 BCE) variolation where people would inocculated from less virulent cases in the hopes that they could make sure they got a less virulent form of the disease. Based on this knowledge he made the leap to assuming that cowpox was an even less virulent form of smallpox, since it did have similar symptoms, and did what people had been doing for several thousand years with one that was less virulent. The point I'm making is he had a sense of what he was doing regardless of knowing what a virus was or not. It still seems like we need to know something about the cause (Jenner knew that it was caught from the sores of others and that having a less virulent form gave you immunity to getting it again just as well as a virulent form did). He had somewhere to start. We can't decide if it's pesticides, nutrition, a virus, a fungus or something we haven't identified yet. We also don't know how it is spread. It just doesn't seem like we know enough to even start coming up with a vaccine.
    I agree with this. Well said. Thanks Michael.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcelar View Post
    I apologize to you HVH. I am sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you or attack. Please accept my sincere apology.
    No problem. Thanks

  7. #27
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    I remember a comment by one of my professors in internal medicine where he stated, "You will all find when you get into practice, that you will make more mistakes because you didn't try than you will make by doing the wrong thing."
    doug

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierrabees View Post
    I remember a comment by one of my professors in internal medicine where he stated, "You will all find when you get into practice, that you will make more mistakes because you didn't try than you will make by doing the wrong thing."
    this is exactly what everyone buying lottery tickets at the gas station in thinking.

    deknow

  9. #29
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    The biggest problem I see is that we cannot even predict which hives might collapse or not.

    So they give a group of hives the "vaccine." And they give another group of hives a placebo. None of the hives from either group shows any symptoms of CCD. Was the vaccine a "success?" Or not?

    Not only do we not know what causes CCD, we don't even know how to reproduce the symptoms. In the case of Jenner, at least he knew that exposure to persons with small pox was likely to make others develop small pox. We don't know if exposure to hives that died of CCD causes CCD, or if exposure to anything "causes" CCD.

    Long story short, we don't even know whether or not CCD is communicable, much less what might cause it.

    Making a vaccine for CCD at this point might be akin to making a vaccine for human heart failure.

  10. #30
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    Rumor has it that a novel virus may be associated with CCD collapsing colonies. March ABJ p239
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    So they give a group of hives the "vaccine." And they give another group of hives a placebo. None of the hives from either group shows any symptoms of CCD. Was the vaccine a "success?" Or not?.
    In the paper they challenged with live virus first. Infecting with virus seemed to result in CCD.
    Since they didn't describe how they made virus or how it was validated, I remain skeptical.

  12. #32
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    Am I understanding correctly, they challenged bee hives with live IAPV first, and seemed to get CCD? Where was their report of that?!? You "solve" one of the biggest mysteries in recent beekeeping, and yet that result gets relegated to a side note in another paper?

    P. S. The link to the journal article just resulted in "error" messages for me.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    Am I understanding correctly, they challenged bee hives with live IAPV first, and seemed to get CCD? Where was their report of that?!? You "solve" one of the biggest mysteries in recent beekeeping, and yet that result gets relegated to a side note in another paper?

    P. S. The link to the journal article just resulted in "error" messages for me.
    Insect Molecular Biology (2009)
    18
    (1), 55–60
    Blackwell Publishing Ltd
    IAPV, a bee-affecting virus associated with Colony
    Collapse Disorder can be silenced by dsRNA ingestion
    E. Maori*†, N. Paldi†, S. Shafir‡, H. Kalev‡, E. Tsur*‡,
    E. Glick† and I. Sela*†

    Abstract
    Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) has been associated
    with Israeli acute paralysis virus (IAPV). CCD poses a
    serious threat to apiculture and agriculture as a whole,
    due to the consequent inability to provide the necessary
    amount of bees for pollination of critical crops. Here
    we report on RNAi-silencing of IAPV infection by
    feeding bees with double-stranded RNA, as an efficient
    and feasible way of controlling this viral disease. The
    association of CCD with IAPV is discussed, as well as
    the potential of controlling CCD.

  14. #34
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    I would ask...if the bees in the hive were administered a vaccine, how would that transfer to the next round of bees. If the bees in a hive only live 6 weeks, how would a vaccine protect bees in the future ?

  15. #35
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    Thanks for the citation, HVH. I did find the paper, and read through it.

    From what I read, they suggest that IAPV can cause symptoms similar to CCD. From there, the authors infer that preventing IAPV might prevent some CCD-like symptoms.

    I think Michael Palmer raises a valid question regarding this vaccine. Might be quite a money-maker if beekeepers find they have to continually feed this vaccine to bees, rather than a once-and-done type method.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    Thanks for the citation, HVH. I did find the paper, and read through it.

    From what I read, they suggest that IAPV can cause symptoms similar to CCD. From there, the authors infer that preventing IAPV might prevent some CCD-like symptoms.

    I think Michael Palmer raises a valid question regarding this vaccine. Might be quite a money-maker if beekeepers find they have to continually feed this vaccine to bees, rather than a once-and-done type method.
    I agree. Beeologics better hurry up or the disappearing disease might disappear on its own.
    At $2/hive/month I wonder who their market will be. Perhaps only the commercial guys that have been hit before will buy this stuff.

  17. #37
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    Could be, but I've heard that one of the big commercial guys that got hit pretty hard by CCD chose to breed from his bees that survived, and he and one of the state inspectors here claim that those resulting bees are far better than his bees before getting hit with CCD.

    I doubt he would pay $2/month/hive.

    My hope is that we learn something from this sort of research, though, and maybe getting some understanding of what can cause the sorts of losses attributed to CCD.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    My hope is that we learn something from this sort of research, though, and maybe getting some understanding of what can cause the sorts of losses attributed to CCD.
    I grow tired of all the theories and would like to have an answer. For now, though, we will have to contend with faith until the facts arrive.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVH View Post
    I grow tired of all the theories and would like to have an answer. For now, though, we will have to contend with faith until the facts arrive.
    I couldn't agree more
    My bees have ccd for 2 years
    It is most unpleasant having >60% die off
    It certainly seems infectious
    It is NOT nosema, unless
    4 seperate tests all were incorrect
    (OBA tech transfer, BP -- no nosema detected)
    I suspect that those whose bees
    don't have ccd are those who don't
    believe ccd is infectious
    I would like to hear from a "sufferer"
    who thinks it is not infectious

    dave

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcelar View Post
    Is this some joke?

    First one has to know what is causing a disease (CCD) i.e. what is causative agent before one thinks about the treatment. Than after we know what the causative agent is we can ponder is it possible to treat it. Do we have medicine for it? Did I miss something? Do you know what is causing CCD?
    Exactly cause if it were that easy would there be any such thing as cancer

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