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Thread: Vaccine for CCD

  1. #1
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    Default Vaccine for CCD

    I found an interesting article laying on my desk today. Apparently there is a trail run for a vacine for ccd.

    http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/05/smal....fsb/index.htm
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  2. #2
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    Here is a related article to the Remebee. Goes into a little more detail about it.

    Beeologics' solution, Remebee, utilizes a mechanism called RNA interference (RNAi, also known as gene silencing) a mechanism that inhibits or hinders gene expression. "The technology is based on naturally occurring biological agents. Conceptually, we're introducing the factor that prompts the silencing response," Paldi tells ISRAEL21c. "We didn't invent gene silencing. However, as far as we know we are among the first to use it commercially on non-humans."
    http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enDispWho=Articles^l2290&enPage=BlankPage&e nDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enVersion=0&enZone =Health
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  3. #3
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    I just found the paper Beeologics was promising at the Reno convention

    http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0.

  4. #4
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    Is this some joke?

    First one has to know what is causing a disease (CCD) i.e. what is causative agent before one thinks about the treatment. Than after we know what the causative agent is we can ponder is it possible to treat it. Do we have medicine for it? Did I miss something? Do you know what is causing CCD?

  5. #5
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    >First one has to know what is causing a disease (CCD) i.e. what is causative agent before one thinks about the treatment.

    My thinking exactly... seems like we would need to know the cause to come up with a vaccine...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcelar View Post
    Is this some joke?

    First one has to know what is causing a disease (CCD) before one thinks about the treatment.
    Not really. If you believe that the cause of CCD is IAPV and make a vaccine against it which shows protection against CCD then that is probably enough.

    I just finished the IMB paper and was not convinced.
    1) First, I would like to have seen data to demonstrate that the virus was alive. Since the only evidence was dead bees, I think they should have infected bees with the same amount of virus prep but gamma irradiated. It is possible that something other than virus made the bees die.
    2) They also didn't continue their graph in figure 2 past 8 days - why?
    3) Figures 4 and 5 indicate that they don't have good technique.
    4) No mention of how they grew the virus and no references.
    5) No explanation of how the dsRNA may interfere with PCR as a possible alternative explanation for apparent knock down.

    I don't like this paper.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >First one has to know what is causing a disease (CCD) i.e. what is causative agent before one thinks about the treatment.

    My thinking exactly... seems like we would need to know the cause to come up with a vaccine...
    Jenner did it in 1798 with small pox. Viruses hadn't even been discovered yet.

    http://www.sc.edu/library/spcoll/nathist/jenner2.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by HVH View Post
    Not really. If you believe that the cause of CCD is IAPV and make a vaccine against it which shows protection against CCD then that is probably enough.

    First you have to be dead sure that is the causative agent (by repeatable experiments i.e. you should be able to always cause CCD by introducing that agent into healthy colony) and than to see if that agent (i.e. virus, bacterium, fungus) has a component (antigen) against which one can make a vaccine. To waste money trying to make vaccine w/o being dead sure that it is ACTUALLY causing a disease is at least foolish.
    Last edited by Bizzybee; 03-07-2009 at 05:05 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcelar View Post

    First you have to be dead sure that is the causative agent (by repeatable experiments i.e. you should be able to always cause CCD by introducing that agent into healthy colony) and than to see if that agent (i.e. virus, bacterium, fungus) has a component (antigen) against which one can make a vaccine. To waste money trying to make vaccine w/o being dead sure that it is ACTUALLY causing a disease is at least foolish.
    It may be foolish but if they are successful then it strongly suggests that IAPV plays a role in CCD. You are correct about protein vaccines but RNAi is a totally different matter. RNAi has nothing to do with antigen presentation or other components of an immune response. I think the original hypothesis that integrated fragments of IAPV DNA, within the honeybee genome, are somehow protective, motivated this group to test RNAi. It is a risky assumption in need of corroboration.
    Last edited by Bizzybee; 03-07-2009 at 05:05 AM.

  10. #10
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    HVH how can one be successful if one doesn't even know the cause. There is scientific order of the things. Good luck to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcelar View Post
    HVH how can one be successful if one doesn't even know the cause. There is scientific order of the things. Good luck to them.
    Read the Jenner link. Jenner noticed milk maidens that had been infected with something from the cow were immune to small pox. They had no idea what small pox was nor did they know what caused the pustules on the milkers. So Jenner deliberately infected a boy with the exudate from milkers and then challenged with exudate from small pox. It worked. So Jenner is credited with the technique of vaccination without knowing what the causative agent was.

  12. #12
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    Cow pox. There's an ancient history of people succeeding in doing things without knowing exactly how. How long were they making wine before they discovered what yeast was?
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  13. #13
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    HVH are you sure there is 1 SINGLE cause for this?
    Last edited by pcelar; 03-09-2009 at 10:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcelar View Post
    HVH are you sure there is 1 SINGLE cause for this?
    Do you know what you are talking about?
    Do you know what a syndrome is?
    Did you study Microbiology 501?
    Did you study Immunology 501?
    Have you been reading the other posts on this thread? You are completely missing the point - if Beeologics makes an RNAi that cures most, if not all, of the CCD symptoms it makes absolutely no difference what the causative agent/s is/are.
    I don't mind discussing microbiology or immunology but I am having a difficult time seeing the connection to Beeologics Remebee. If you haven't already, I suggest you read the primary literature link I provided earlier before you go on the attack.

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    Regardless of whether or not it is a cure for CCD the notion of a vaccination of a bee against any virus is interesting. I posted about this Remebee quite a while ago but it seemed to go unnoticed.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBJ View Post
    Regardless of whether or not it is a cure for CCD the notion of a vaccination of a bee against any virus is interesting. I posted about this Remebee quite a while ago but it seemed to go unnoticed.
    I think I recall the post but I was waiting for the paper to be available. I tried getting answers from researchers but they all said they were waiting for the paper just like me. I attached the paper in an earlier post and have read it and commented on it. I was not impressed with the paper and will just have to wait until someone does some good science before I am convinced.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVH View Post
    if Beeologics makes an RNAi that cures most, if not all, of the CCD symptoms it makes absolutely no difference what the causative agent/s is/are.
    i'm on a slow dial up connection at the moment, so i haven't read the relevant links.

    with that said, ccd is, at this point, nothing but a collection of symptoms...which is why it is called a "disorder" or "syndrome" rather than a "disease".

    one can have a number of causes for the same set of symptoms (ie, food poisoning and the flu feel very similar, and have similar symptoms, but the flu is a virus, and most poisoning is bacterial, or perhaps fungal).

    "symptoms" are not cured, they can be treated.

    in order to determine if a causative agent (or agents) are the cause of ccd, one must both find that agent in ALL samples of "active ccd", and be able to CAUSE ccd symptoms by inocculating with that agent. stopping vomiting with pill (or even a large cork) is not a "cure for the flu", it is a treatment for vomiting....there may still be "leakage" from the other end...but no vomiting.

    if this is a "cure for ccd", one would expect that it could stop an active "ccd infection" and/or prevent such an infection from spreading through an apiary.

    if, in fact, iapv had been found as the causative agent for all cases of ccd, we wouldn't be having this discussion. it hasn't. one could argue that cases that were not found to be caused by iapv are not, in fact, ccd...but then what caused those cases?

    deknow

  18. #18
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    Guys - I have read the paper, said I thought it was not convincing, and don't really have any opinion about the causative agent/s of CCD. I didn't even start this thread. Read the paper if you are so inclined.

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    The sandbox here is small folks...let's play nice. It's greatly appreciated!
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  20. #20
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    >Jenner did it in 1798 with small pox. Viruses hadn't even been discovered yet.

    True. But he had a several thousand year precedence of (since at least 1000 BCE) variolation where people would inocculated from less virulent cases in the hopes that they could make sure they got a less virulent form of the disease. Based on this knowledge he made the leap to assuming that cowpox was an even less virulent form of smallpox, since it did have similar symptoms, and did what people had been doing for several thousand years with one that was less virulent. The point I'm making is he had a sense of what he was doing regardless of knowing what a virus was or not. It still seems like we need to know something about the cause (Jenner knew that it was caught from the sores of others and that having a less virulent form gave you immunity to getting it again just as well as a virulent form did). He had somewhere to start. We can't decide if it's pesticides, nutrition, a virus, a fungus or something we haven't identified yet. We also don't know how it is spread. It just doesn't seem like we know enough to even start coming up with a vaccine.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

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