From a South American apicultural 'experiment' in the 1950's?
Other?
Origin of AHB?
1) From a South American apicultural 'experiment' in the 1950's?
2) Other?
I would just like to know what the general consesus is about the origin of the Africanized honeybee in North America. How did it get here? There is a book by Caron, "Africanized Bee in the Americas" I think. I haven't read it: If you have, could you bring me up to date as far as any new information?
Last edited by Oldbee; 02-15-2009 at 05:27 AM.
I like to wear my tin foil hat with chin strap firmly in place when it comes to the question of the ahb's origin.. but then again I commonly go by the tag 'et' so what else might one expect oldbee.
I do believe that those little bad girls where here long before some supposed. the very notion that semen was distributed to some fairly active beekeeping areas prior to the termination of this experiment would also highly suggest this to be the case. some casual observation by folks one generation older than myself reinforces this notion. one event long ago (which I would just a bit later discuss with one of my commercial mentor/employer) led me to believe that the ahb had been here for quite some time.
if I was to time line this event I would guess the mid 1960's.
tecumseh: Is this why some old time beekeepers 'reminisce' about their bees being hotter 'back then' than they are today? Why would anyone inadvertently/secretly or through ignorance import bees that had a reputation of being somewhat dangerous? This happened with English Sparrows/Starlings I know but,...?
I am not a great fan of conspiracy 'theorists' by the way.
oldbee writes:
I am not a great fan of conspiracy 'theorists' by the way.
tecumseh:
I can not right now remember the source (I want to say benjamin disreali... the reference it is a bit fuzzy right now) but someone suggested (ie said)... "that the only way someone could not believe in conspiracy theory was to know absolutely nothing about history."
in regards to the ahb you need only to reference steve taber to confirm at least some of what I suggest in my prior post. of course my own experience in regards to this issue cannot be referenced... since it was just my experiece that I then causally made some mention of to my mentor/employer, who then informed me of what the buzz was amongst the big guys in regards to this question.
tecumseh removes his very attractive tin foil hat, dons his cowboy hat and goes to breakfast...
Maybe it's not very important one way or the other, though I do find it disturbing that most references [99%]? are to the 'Brazilian connection' and yet there are 'other' conjectures/ideas/opinions.
This is from 1999 I know: Port of Florida. http://news.ufl.edu/1999/06/22/bees/ I suppose in the 1800's, African bees could have come in on 'wooden ships'. With a much lower human population density, this may not have been noticed as much. Oh well, breakfast for me too.
What I think
If I remember right they were trying breed them with what bees we had for better honey production in South America. The Afican bees produced so well, good hive survival rate, we just need to breed out the agressiveness and we'll have great bees for making honey right. Any how few swarms excapes the drones natrually out fly the stock we have and breed to every queen flying making our hybrd. These ferel hives slowly migrating north until here we are. I was in Florida in the 80's we heard of the Africans but they weren't supposedly there yet. However you could get hold of some mean as heck bees. It seemed some to the wild swarms and stuff daddy got that were dark were mean as the devil and stayed that way.
If I'm wrong don't just tell me please. Tell me with a verifiable researched opinion so I can learn something too.
The Marion Daily Star
Monday, September 20, 1880 Marion, Ohio
One Hundred Dollar Bees
Gathering Queens in Cyprus and in the
Holy Land-Some Interesting Information
About Bees.
D. A. Jones, a member of the Canadian
parliament, recently returned to
his home at Beaton, Ontario, from the
island of Cyprus and the Holy Land.
His visit there was for the sole purpose
of securing queen bees from those countries.
His apiary in Beeton is very
large, and he has others in the United
States. He also established an apiary
in Larnica, Cyrus, which is now in the charge
of Mr. and Mrs. Frank Benton. Writing
from Palestine to a friend in New York,
Mr. Jones said of his journey: "I have
been delighted with my trip through
these parts on account of finding a very
superior race of bees—a race that I feel
are sanguine, and when tested, will prove to be a
boon to America; and as I am the first
to import them, I hope to get enough to
America to have the race established
there in purity. There appears to be
but one race of bees in the Holy Land,
but they vary in color and in some
other respects, and on this account I
have procured some from almost every
part. Those I obtained in the valley of
Shaion, Jerusalem, and all about the
hills of Judea, also east of Jordan and
the Red sea, were sent on mules, camels
and asses to Jaffa, thence by steamer to
the apiary at Larnica. Those I got on
Mount Lebanon, in Herman, Damascus,
and in fact in all the
northern part of Syria, were taken
to the coast and shipped at
Beyrout for Larnica. Just now I am
getting a supply from northeast of
Damascus, near Palmyra, and they seem
very fine. I have also received a number
of bees for Professor Cook, of Lansing,
Mich, for examination under the
microscope. In some localities they refuse
to sell me bees. I have with me a
stock of small vials filled with alcohol,
into each of which I place a few bees.
These excite the curiosity of the natives,
and they watch my every movement.
The dangers of traveling are very great,
as I am forced to go to distant points,
quite out of the ordinary routes, to
carry out my object. If my losses are
not too heavy, I will surprise the beekeepers
of America with this new race
of bees. I find it less difficult to secure
bees here than it would be in ordinary
seasons, as the crops were a failure in
Palestine and Syria last year, and starvation
makes some more willing to sell
their bees than they otherwise would
be. If I ever get out safe from these
tribes I will have no desire to return,
even should I find a superior race in
some other locality. I will hire the
natives instead to come to me, and let
them run the risk of having to find bees
for me to select from, and pay them
such sums as will induce them to perform
that work. In fact, it will be quite
impossible to ever do more than
to get a few stocks to breed from, as the
cost is so great. In some instances each
bee could not be obtained and laid down
safely in American for less than $100.
All I have will surely average that
sum.”
Mr. Jones brought with him 200 hives.
He placed them on exhibition in London
before his departure for this country.
They were viewed there by the Baroness
Burdett-Coutts, Sir John Lubbock, Mr.
Terry, of the British museum, and John
Hunter, of the Times.
Upon arriving in New York Mr. Jones
said;
"Notwithstanding I have gone to the
antipodes for my pets. I cannot safely
pass any opinion upon them yet. I am
the first man in this country who has
collected Cyprian and Holy Land bees in
their native abode, and comparatively
little is known of them. The queens are
strong, hearty bees, able to go long distances,
and maintain their own against
a superior force. All that I may say
further would be only conjecture. It
will take time to test the superiority of
their breed as honey producers over that
of the Italian or Ligurian queens."
Mr. A. K. Blood, of Massachusetts,
was the first beekeeper that introduced
Cyprian queens into the hives of this
country. His were received three years
ago from some friends traveling in the
Holy Land. There were few in number.
Beekeepers who inspected them believed
that they promised much. Next year a
Fort Plain beekeeper introduced the
Cyprians into his apiary, and they produced
such results as to cause a sensation
among beekeepers and to lead to
the trip of Mr. Jones. The Cyprian
queen is lively and of a very light yellow
color under its body. This often
approaches a straw color. She is
ferocious when attacked and resists
vehemently. Her workers are much
more hardy than either the Italian or
the black bees. It is said that in Cyprus
she will live for six years. The
Italian queen's existence is confined to
three or four years. Her other points
are yet to be tested. Her drones also
are superior to the ordinary Italian
drones.
Besides the Italian queen, the little
black, large brown and gray queen bees
are natives of this country, and have
thrived ever since they were brought out
by the pilgrim fathers. A good queen
will lay 3,000 eggs in a day. Queens are
hatched in fourteen days, workers in
about twenty-one days, and drones in
about twenty-four days. Among the
successful beekeepers of this country are
General Fitz John Porter, who has his
apiary in Morristown, Colonel Landreth
and S. L. M. Barlow, Esq., of Glen
Cove. There are apiaries on the tops of
large buildings in this city, and in the yards
of many suburban residences.
Bees find many feeding grounds in this,
vicinity. There are so many rare trees,
plants and flowers cultivated here that
the honey gathered is rich in color and
sweetness.
Bees fly high in the city. It is necessary
for them to pass over the tops of
tall houses to escape injury from
the thousands passing along the
streets. Yet they often drop to the
sidewalk and add to their store from
syrup, molasses, sugar and other sweet
substances. The yield of honey this
year will not be so large as it has been
in former ones. In California, which
is a large honey producing country, the
crop this year will not be one-half as
large as the crop of 1878. The yield
from counties in this State will be much
smaller than during former years. The
bumblebee stores her honey in the
ground, and beekeepers get at it only
with difficulty. When it is collected it
brings fancy prices.
The Baroness Burdett-Coutts, who is
president of the British beekeepers' association,
has written to a merchant in
New York for information as to the manner
of hiving bees and storing honey
in this country. The Prince of Wales
has an apiary.- New York Sun.
Not sure what bumblebees he is discussing as BB have very little honey. Just enough to nurture the young bees. Since their nests are small with only around 500 bees, I don't think you are going to get any honey. Must have smoked to much hashish while over in the Middle East gather bees and getting high!Originally Posted by France
De Colores,
Ken
If the African/Africanized bees were here [N.A.] much earlier [than first reported] and their genes/genetics dominate the EHB in one way or another [drones] why did the North American [European] honeybee succumb to mites? Africanized bees are supposed to be more resistant or tolerate mites better.
What I read about the African honeybee is that it originated from Tanzania, Africa [or in that region] before some were taken to South America for the experiments, not from Cyprus or the Middle East.
This might be off topic or perhaps relative to the whole thread.
How is it that everything I have read said that there were no bees in North American until the bees were transported by boat from Europe in the 1700s and 1800s?
I find that hard to phantom! God is perfect. There is just no way I can comprehend there being no bees here before being invaded by the "white man".
Jaguars and other species now only living in South American once roamed freely in the southern US. So by all rights any honey bees that were already in South America would have been present here too!
De Colores,
Ken
Here you may find partial information...
There is more, but I will just paste enough to let you see that what has been said is in fact true, etc...
Just to put some at ease? African bees were not only experimented with in US, they were handled by brother Adam and Dr. Kohler from Wursburg, Germany and Russian - but from there any information is impossible to verify.
Brother Adam had success, from Dr. Kohler - the information is not available and is assumed that shipments of sperm were not in good condition to be used or inseminated queens did not survive. (Some rumors have it that they were all destroyed cause they were extremely hot as compared to German bees or Carniolans to which Germans were at the time accustomed to)
Bee Culture Research Investigations, Southern States Bee Culture
Research Lab
Baton Rouge, La.
Period: April 1 - Jun 30, 1960
Quarterly Progress Report labeled Administratively Confidential.
Page #13.BR 14-60. To obtain information on semen and eggs of the
honey bee (S.Taber,3rd) Experiments on Semen --shipment: The work this
season on this problem has continued some of the work started in the
fall, and summer. Two shipments of semen were received from Dr. W. E.
Kerr, in Brazil. The first arrived in very poor condition and no
inseminations were possible. The second made according to my
instructions was quite satisfactory and semen arrived in good
condition. Four queens were inseminated, all are laying fertilized
eggs. According to Kerr this particular stock (Apis mellifera
adonsonii) is quite vicious but a tremendous honey producer. At this
time virgins are being reared from these queens and Kerr has been
asked to send additional semen from this stock. Three tubes of semen
mailed to Kerr in one shipment were received but queens inseminated
with the contents of the tubes died. Two additional shipments of
semen, 3 tubes each have been made to Kerr, one sent airmail special
delivery and the other sent regular mail special delivery.
Bee Culture Research Investigations, Southern States Bee Culture
Research Lab
Baton Rouge, La.
Period: Apr 1 - Jun 30, 1961
Quarterly Progress Report labeled Administratively Confidential, with
following: This report is not for publication in whole or in part
without prior approval by the Chief of Investigations.
ABSTRACT: page 1. Work Project ENT c10 - Bee Culture Investigations,
including other pollinating insects. BR 4-61. To develop methods of
measurement of "temper" in honey bees as a basis for genetic study. BR
7-61. To improve individual artificial insemination. BR 11-61. To
obtain information on semen and eggs of the honey bee.
Page #9. A shipment of one tube of semen of A. mellifera adonsonii was
received from Dr W. Kerr, four inseminations were attempted, 3 queens
died immediately, the fourth is still in doubt.
----
Bee Culture Research Investigations, Southern States Bee Culture
Research Lab
Baton Rouge, La.
Period: Jul 1 - Sep 30, 1961
Quarterly Progress Report labeled Administratively Confidential.
BR 4-61. To develop methods of measurement of "Temper" in honey bees
as a basis for genetic study.
Page #2. In cooperation with the Ontario Agricultural College stocks
of bees are being established from immature stages brought to Baton
Rouge from England by Dr. Smith, of that Institution. Queens and drone
pupae in gelatin capsules, young larvae on royal jelly, and fertilized
eggs were included. Three stocks were represented: Adam 1, Adam 2, and
Russian. Good sexually mature individuals were obtained from all
categories in all stocks except the Russian drones produced very
little semen. Virgin queens of all lines were shipped to Ontario for
natural mating there and drone production. Artificial matings were
made between the virgins and drones of each Adam line and some of
those shipped to Ontario and some to Madison for virgin production.
Page #3. BR 4-61. To develop methods of measurement of "Temper" in
honey bees as a basis for genetic study. (Roberts) During the season
we have produced over 25 two-way hybrids and 20 four-way hybrids for
temper studies. The single hybrids are established in nuclei and the
multiple hybrids are now in colonies. Variances in temper of these
bees are observable but difficult to measure. So far we have not
obtained a "yardstick."
If Mr. Jones smoked hashish or not, that was entirely his business.
The discussion is/was about AHB and not BB.
For those of us who know a bit more about the BB - it is known that BB deposit honey and polen in tiny "pots" and from there they use it to feed their young.
It is possible to get honey from BB, but one is lucky to get a spoonfull.
Quantities would indeed be very small and therefore quite expansive if one would have the time and inclination to try and gather some for sale???
I had some experience with BB as pollinators and not as honey-gatherers. From time to time I did partake from robing their pots. This was done with a straw, cause I did not want to destroy their little set-ups for which they, BB, work so hard for. . .
Could it have been possible for someone to smuggle AHB into North America prior to the 50s debacle, certainly.
But there is no historical evidence to indicate this, we watched the spread of AHB from the epicenter of the original experimental site, for many years until they entered the US in Texas.
The Busy Bee teaches two lessons: One is not to be idle and the other is not to get stung.
[quote=USCBeeMan;394280]This might be off topic or perhaps relative to the whole thread.
How is it that everything I have read said that there were no bees in North American until the bees were transported by boat from Europe.
I find that hard to phantom! God is perfect. There is just no way I can comprehend there being no bees here before being invaded by the "white man".
There probably were bees in North America [still are] before they were brought over from Europe by 'white man'. They just weren't the same kind as 'Apis melifera melifera'. The same reason we don't find exactly the same kinds of birds in Maine, Vermont, or New Hampshire as are found in Washington or Oregon.
France: Thanks for the information/references to read over.
Well now... I would not go as far as to say that European bees had succumbed to the mite..? They are more or less holding on, with our help ofcourse!?
But, this is only for the fact that our European bee is the "most handled bee" in the whole world. We forever poke at them and fuss about them. We poke and knock on hives in deep winters, just to satisfy our curiosity - just to hear them roar. One can go on and on... (Than we are surprised when the bees are gone?)
In other lands, none of this is happening. They are left to do, what they do best... The only time they are "handled" is once a year, when human hands steel from them the fruit of their year-long labour.
Much about what we knew about bees, we had forgot, over the last hundred years or so.
To compare here to there?
To think, now and then? And there is more. . . This is not fair, nor it is particularly complimentary to us who call ourselves "beekeepers!"
I do acknowledge what you are saying, Oldbee, but everything is not so clear-cut as it appears.
First of all, I do not know what races did they encounter in Cyprus or in the Holy Land, prior too, or in late 1800?!
It is known that Adam traveled all over the world, and collected many races and strains of bees and African were included. What and how he used what he got, is/was ofcourse his secret.
Others brought African bees to North America in the period, say, up to WWII. Documents for this are not available, (it is doubtful that they exist at all.)
It is common knowledge, to us old timers, that had been in profi business, that African queens were widely available for sale for a long time. I had them, and did not go to Africa to get them. Though, others did go and made a trip to those lands.
Now, about Varroa?
It is also said that Varroa came from Siberia??? So, Africa is all of a sudden, not so important as far as Varroa goes? Africa is important to some degree only when we here talk about "Africanized" or cerana's being able to better handle Varroa? There are more of "better" credits at hand, to attribute to cerana, but I will not go there.
"Africanized" can also mean a lot of diferent things - to diferent people?!
Varroa is also said that it came from the East, some believe that Japan had them - before they spread to Siberia. (Thus, why the bees from Primorski Kraj are so important. Primorski Kraj is only a jump across the sea from Japan.)
Varroa only started to spread to Europe when the Russians completed the rail-line to Primorski Kraj, and traveling was thus enabled and with it the "bad and the ugly" came and went?!
Secondly:
It is unfair to compare our bees, managed and on man-made enlarged combs, plus some other things that we bestow them with and is favoured by Varroa.
Natural, (wild, feral) bees are on combs which are made by them, to their liking and to the size which greatly differs from what we keep them on ! There is also wast difference from our way of keeping bees - or keeping them in those countries, where one dreaming of a nice hive - might as well be wishing for a moon?!
I don't want to start something to which there will be no end? I will just ad that our bees are on crutches. They are totally dependant on us. Read: Help with providing them with a home, Made to our liking. To our standards. From materials that suit us. Even the colour of those homes has to tickle our fancy - or else. . . We force them on frames, artificial comb foundation, artificial comb, (all too big) medicines, food, etc, etc. . .
African, Cyprian, Holy land, Russian from Primorsky region, etc. . . Those bees, are even to this day, kept mostly as naturally as they have been for thousands of years. Those people don't have the resources to keep them in nice hives or on man made combs. They can't medicate them, even if they wanted too, and the list goes on and on.
Now, if we were prepared to let our bees be as God intended them to be? To except the loses, and let the strong survive? We would, to our amazement, find that Varroa is not as important, or problematic, as we let it be!? Varroa is ruining our hives, killing our bees and running our lives!
In other parts of the world this is not so, and we know it!
We, supposedly intelligent species, have a hundred or so years ago, made a decision - now we have to live with it - like it or not. . .
Oldbee, you are quite welcome and I concur and am ready to sign my name under your last post...
Have a nice day and listen to your bees, they are talking to us, have much to say, only not many are listening.
P.S.
Oldbee, that about bees being here or not? Who came out with it? Not God. Right?
Regards,
France
[QUOTE=Oldbee;394300]
Well the usual story you hear is that 7 swarms escaped when a visiting beekeeper removed some queen excludes from the front of the hives. Well that part is true but what is not mentioned is that hybrid queens were produced and distributed to beekeepers in Brazil until around 1964. The source of this information is from the "The african Honey Bee (Westview Studies in Insect Biology)" which is a collection of chapters written by South and Central American bee researchers edited by by Marla Spivak , David J C Fletcher, Michael D Breed.
It is an interesting but dry read.
Home of the ventilated and sting resistant Ultra Breeze bee suits and jackets
http://www.honeymoonapiaries.com
Few things in life are all one thing or the other. Dr. Kerr shipped stock to the USDA who also raised them and shipped them all over the US. But they also have worked their way up from South America.
http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/part17.htm
"Two shipments of semen were received from Dr. W. E. Kerr, in Brazil. The first arrived in very poor condition and no inseminations were possible. The second made according to my instructions was quite satisfactory and semen arrived in good condition. Four queens were inseminated, all are laying fertilized eggs. According to Kerr this particular stock (Apis mellifera adonsonii) is quite vicious but a tremendous honey producer."
"The Apis mellifera adonsonii. Stock that was lost during the late spring because of neglect has been re-imported with two successful shipments of semen from Dr Kerr, in Brazil. This stock will be available for tests by the various interested people by the end of the summer. Stock of over 90% adonsonii is now available and with a little inbreeding this will be taken to over 95%."
Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it."
My book: ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
Apis mellifera were imported to North America by Europeans (Englishmen to be specific) in 1620. To Jamestown, VA. Before then the only bees in North America were nonapis types, bumblebees and such.This might be off topic or perhaps relative to the whole thread.
How is it that everything I have read said that there were no bees in North American until the bees were transported by boat from Europe in the 1700s and 1800s?
I find that hard to phantom! God is perfect. There is just no way I can comprehend there being no bees here before being invaded by the "white man".
Jaguars and other species now only living in South American once roamed freely in the southern US. So by all rights any honey bees that were already in South America would have been present here too!
When bees were brought to North America many other animals and plants were imported too, fruit trees, vegetables and animals that the colonists were familiar with back home.
The South American honeybee, malipona, only exists in its' "native territory" and wouldn't survive in most of North America. It doesn't produce much honey either.
Your God may be perfect, I don't know about that, but that doesn't mean that everything exists everywhere. Did you know that camels used to exist here at one time?
Mark Berninghausen
www.uucantonny.org, "Support Our Troops"
sqkcrk writes:
Apis mellifera were imported to North America by Europeans (Englishmen to be specific) in 1620. To Jamestown, VA. Before then the only bees in North America were nonapis types, bumblebees and such.
tecumseh:
I think this 'date' is associated with a shipping manfest of goods to the early english colonies. In my somewhat dated version of abc-xyz it was suggest that viking, who made settlement in nova scotia, 'may' have also brought honeybee to north america. a much earlier date, but not verifiable in regards to a paper trail.
france writes:
Bee Culture Research Investigations, Southern States Bee Culture
Research Lab
Baton Rouge, La.
Period: April 1 - Jun 30, 1960
Quarterly Progress Report labeled Administratively Confidential.
Page #13.BR 14-60. To obtain information on semen and eggs of the
honey bee (S.Taber,3rd) Experiments on Semen --shipment: The work this
season on this problem has continued some of the work started in the
fall, and summer. Two shipments of semen were received from Dr. W. E.
Kerr, in Brazil. The first arrived in very poor condition and no
inseminations were possible. The second made according to my
instructions was quite satisfactory and semen arrived in good
condition. Four queens were inseminated, all are laying fertilized
eggs. According to Kerr this particular stock (Apis mellifera
adonsonii) is quite vicious but a tremendous honey producer. At this
time virgins are being reared from these queens and Kerr has been
asked to send additional semen from this stock. Three tubes of semen
mailed to Kerr in one shipment were received but queens inseminated
with the contents of the tubes died. Two additional shipments of
semen, 3 tubes each have been made to Kerr, one sent airmail special
delivery and the other sent regular mail special delivery.
tecumseh:
interest refence france.
I seem to recall the steve taber was working on the problem of shipping semen (at that time). I also seem to recall that this work was out of the baton rouge bee station.
by your above reference can we assume that the african strain was actually here by 1960-1961?
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