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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,619

    Default

    I hope your wrong Keith, but I have to say, I agree with your outlook from where we see economy sitting right now. What you describe is very bad for Canada.
    Lets just hope we all climb out of this thing without the spinning loose!
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    souris, manitoba, canada
    Posts
    787

    Default hate to pour doom and gloom but

    no U.S. economic recovery till 2015

    http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=9957

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,289

    Default

    Irwin,

    doom & gloom.... you are right on the "money" something American's don't have in there saving.

    It's going to be harder than before to pull out, because we have loss our manufactor base in this country. They call it a sevice economy.

    And who do we elect to lead... man we are in deep

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Salem, Oregon
    Posts
    1,019

    Thumbs Up K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple STUPID!)

    I hope that this is not too off-topic.
    The business model that I see in many beekeepers' almond pollination, I want nothing to do with.
    Brokers? No thank you.
    I have the same grower that I have had all along. Again this year his operation is expanding.
    Most of my friends also provide hives to the same growers that they have , year after year.
    Now, I, like a lot of you recieved the calls on the cell, from excited beekeepers talking $160, $180, $200, $240.....ect
    In the end THEY ALL HAD TO BEG BROKERS FOR NEW PLACEMENT @ $140- $155
    Finally, I recieve a call one day from my grower, "Harry; what are you thinking on price?"
    Not wanting to answer of the cuff, I ask, "Why, whats up?"
    "I just want you to know I am NOT going to pay the rediculous amounts floating about", he said.
    I said, "OOOOH, don't worry. I'm not goiung to gouge you. Have I ever gouged you? We'll come to an agreement just like we always do; relax!"
    He said, "Well I'm sorry, but I just wanted to be up front with you; I am not paying $185.00"
    Since then, I have my signed contract back, and called in a friend to provide an additional 550 hives for a first year crop there.
    My almong grower and I have developed a friendly and mutually benifitial relationship over the years. And that is the way it shall continue, if I have my way.
    The last thing I want to do is go hunting every year just so I can make $5 more. (or maybe much less in the end)
    Again, I hope this is on-topic.
    I have exactly ONE hive more than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond question.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Camarillo, CA, USA
    Posts
    316

    Smile On subject

    Here is what I am seeing. Their are a few rookies from out of the area running around calling every grower in site in the south valley. This creates a sense to growers that there are extra quality bees. Unfortunately some are not well versed in the almond business. ie what the function of the broker is and how to position one as one. This does not happen overnight.
    The next thing is that people come to ca for the first time without places to take the hives, they then panic and cause all kinds of trouble for the rest of the beeks, because they then create a bidding war, they then don't come back the next year and leave a mess . ie new grower wants to inspect every hive (total of 1100, of which 500 are mine) , this grower got poor bees & poor crop last season. I look forward to creating a long term relation as I grow my pollination business.

    Suggestion: Anyone who has any thought of coming to CA, do your homework. Start with Randy Olivers CA dreaming artilcles published in the ABJ and on his web site, www.scientificbeekeeping.com you will discover the pollination business is no bed of roses.

    Next understand the weather paterns of the area you will be winter you bees, tough for bees to grow in fog at 47 degrees.

    Next, as in home improvement projects, double everything, expenses & time. If your bus plan won't work with either higher expenses or twice as many non rentable hives ( dinks, outs, duds, pick a name, it will work) stay away.

    Reccomendation, If you are one that is calling around to growers, do not sell yourself short. Understand the going rates that other beeks and brokers are charging in your area. Do not just quote a price and run, as all good salesman, gather information, if they have a beek and are happy move on. If they need bees find out why, what happened to previous beek and be prepared to say the most powerful word in business, NO.

    So a little off subject, now back, the word I am hearing is that there are extra bees, but also a lot of uncommited growers, I have seen more switching of beeks by growers than any previous years, My forcast is that this type of year will clean out some beeks that travel great distances to ca and are not set up here to operate.

    To the great year we will all have!

    Larry

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,619

    Default

    >>I said, "OOOOH, don't worry. I'm not goiung to gouge you. Have I ever gouged you? We'll come to an agreement just like we always do; relax!"
    He said, "Well I'm sorry, but I just wanted to be up front with you; I am not paying $185.00"
    Since then, I have my signed contract back


    Thats all fine and dandy Harry, but why then arnt you still paying 65$ for a rented colony?
    150$ for a rented hive was rediculous a few years back, yet, that was the going rate, and it seems to be holding as a baseline now.
    So how long are you going to hold onto your price before you jack it up to 185$, the rediculous price, which may well become the baseline price.

    I do understand what your saying though, I play the same game on rented land. I hold the same relationships, and barter very much the same, other than I sign multi year contracts, negotiable when the contract expiers.

    I guess the question is really, how strong of a relationship do we have with our clients, to be able to give and take on both sides to find the consistant baseline price everyone is happy with
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,289

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by LSPender View Post
    Suggestion: Anyone who has any thought of coming to CA, do your homework. Start with Randy Olivers CA dreaming artilcles published in the ABJ and on his web site, www.scientificbeekeeping.com you will discover the pollination business is no bed of roses.
    Larry
    Great suggestion, I founded & co-wrote that artical.

    It all started one morning in Febuary, when I stop in a cafe in Ripon Calif there were a couple keepers down and out. We started talking about almonds, they said they have bees with no contracts. I asked them why did you drive out west here some 1000 miles with no contract.
    They said there was a artical in the ABJ from a man in MO that said it's a gold rush in Calif, That they were planting & selling almonds with no end in sight.

    Well those guys never did get there bees placed, the more I thought about it the matter I got.

    So, I picked up the phone and called Joe Graham the editor of American Bee Journal. I told him that the artical about almonds is very misleading and in fact is hurting some beekeepers.

    He ask me to write what I thought was a sound story of the almond pollination & he would publish it in the Journal, so when I began getting info up & down the state I talked with Randy, he said he would help & help he did.

    So now you know the rest of the story......


    Now, Alpha6 talks about record crops more acaerage of almonds,

    MAN HERE WE GOING AGAIN WITH A OUT-OF-STATER TALKING ALMONDS.
    Last edited by Keith Jarrett; 01-14-2009 at 08:00 AM. Reason: spelling

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Fresno California USA
    Posts
    2,479

    Default Pumped, deflated

    The hardshell California varieties that set the main 08 crop are being offered at less than .90 lb., but are not moving at all, domestic or overseas. Very few of the new big plantings have been self financed, instead borrowed money has funded development ( think interest rate ). One reason some growers are holding off is that they CAN"T GET FINANCING. We are not immune to the national & international economic malaise. Things are changing really fast. Looks like survival of the fittest time.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,289

    Thumbs Up

    Very well said, Tom

  10. #30
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Fresno California USA
    Posts
    2,479

    Default Thanks

    Keith for the support and also for the sometimes bitter doses of reality. Personally, I'm looking forward to the Big Shakeout looming on the horizon. The survivors will enjoy many benefits from it.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    omaha nebr. USA
    Posts
    494

    Default Beeks & Farmers

    It's called greed & stupidity.
    A farmers & beekeepers worst friend.
    Farm ground here in Nebraska is renting for $225 to $250 for dry land.
    Spoke with one of my wife's & I best friend last nite.
    He lost 200 acres the he & his father farmed for the last 42 years.
    He lost the ground to a cash bid of $305 an acre.
    He sat down with the banker ( who also farms ) and crunched some numbers.
    This ground sits right across from ground that he owns.
    After farming this property for so long he knows darn good and well what this farm will produce.
    The numbers at the bank at $305 an acre would in no way work or cash flow as they call it.
    Hence the greed & stupidity.
    Beeks are no better.
    Pack ther bags, & run out to the left coast with no paper work & then the price cutting starts.
    Grain prices are in the tank for the last week or so & the main reason for this is that there is simply no real money left to spend in the world.
    No money to buy grains & some times our meat products.
    I have no idea how the nut marktes will hold up if countries can not afford to purchase garins & meats as such.
    Spoke with our neighbor down the road the other nite.
    He has 10 or 12 loads to go west in a few weeks.
    Never seen or heard him this upset in the 20+ years we have done business.
    The subject was all the price cutting being tried this year in the almonds.
    Time will tell but long story short farmers & beekeepers are there own worst enemy.
    Greed & stupidity are many times there partners!

  12. #32
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Snowmass, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    2,496

    Default

    Read next post
    Last edited by alpha6; 01-14-2009 at 10:29 AM. Reason: didn't like the post.
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. John Wayne

  13. #33
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Snowmass, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    2,496

    Default

    Keith,

    Ok...I have been reading over your old posts and think I now understand where you are coming from. I understand what it is like to run a large operation and have people come in and cut the prices out from under you. I can understand now that my posts may have been misinterpreted by some to want to "rush" out west with their bees hoping to place them. My apologies.

    From a post by Keith -
    "Many keepers now know what they don't have in their boxes for the almonds. We have plenty of boxes here in Calif.

    The farmers, on the other hand, are sitting on the fence, waiting for last minute cheap bees, like last years mess.

    This is not going happen this year. Many keepers last year jumped on the band wagon, headed west and got burnt. Some here on beesource are chomping at the bit to come out, with no experience of almond pollination. They do however want to tag-along at the last minute. This is a receipe for disaster. One needs to know the supply/demand part of the equation and proceed carefully.
    What we don't need, is what happen last year. This was mainly due to inexperienced keepers. They drove the market down to $75/ hive at the last minute. Desperate keepers hurt everyone, established keepers and growers.

    Keith Jarrett"

    Sound advice. No one wins in these cases. Best of luck to you this year Keith.
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. John Wayne

  14. #34
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Fresno California USA
    Posts
    2,479

    Default Pollination situation

    OK Here we go...the market for bee rental has collapsed...there are 20-30,000 colonies here and getting the COLD SHOULDER...within 10 days bees will be offered at 80-90$ ea....Panic & desperation is upon us...man my $140 deals look good right now I could get all the bees I want for what ever I want to pay...good bye & good riddance...it's a time of reckoning...goosd luck to all...Tom

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Hughson, CA
    Posts
    153

    Default

    ....Panic & desperation is upon us..

    Breathe Tom! It is going to be O.K. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that for those that planned ahead and have good bees there deligence will be rewarded. In the grand scheme of things 20-30 thousand colonies is just a small percentage of the total market.

    "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." - Applies to this years almond pollination market.


  16. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    FRASER VALLEY, BRITISH COLUMBIA
    Posts
    1,349

    Default

    The problem with having just 1 or 2 % extra colonies on the supply side is the perception it creates as having an overabundance of hives available. It's enough to set off that panic and downward spiral on the price side. On the other hand that same 1-2 % colonies short in California can have the opposite effect, where growers drive the price up.

    Hope it all works out for all concerned.

    Jean-Marc

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Camarillo, CA, USA
    Posts
    316

    Default word on the street

    second hand info, will be confirming Sat,
    Semi loads came into fresno area within the past 2 days from across the country, mortality rate 50%. Maybe a cold trip or something else, but I know its frustrating to grade bees, pick the best put them on the semi, pay for the trip and over half not qualify. Unfortunataly this is still a reality in our industry

    I will confirm with more info Sat.

    Larry

  18. #38
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Snowmass, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    2,496

    Default

    I wouldn't wish a lose on anyone. Keep us updated and thanks for posting Larry.
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. John Wayne

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Lancaster CA
    Posts
    410

    Default LS Pender

    Talked to farm manager from Tejon Ranch tuesday night at a water meeting. He had the impression that there were a lot of bees around because he was getting calls as you mentioned. I didn't ask but got the impression he is still with last years beek. even though he had quality issues the last two years. His impression is that bee prices are falling.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Ripley, WV, USA
    Posts
    28

    Default

    What a shame......what a terrible loss! Please update when you confirm.

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