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Hive design, what type?

115K views 72 replies 47 participants last post by  trishbookworm 
#1 · (Edited)
For discussion of the various types of hives; Langstroth, Top Bar, etc., and how to do an initial setup. Things to consider, pros and cons, such as future extracting issues and supering. Frame and foundation types.
 
#2 ·
8 frame vs. 10 frame equipment

Unsure if this topic belongs, but you may want to consider getting and starting out on 8 frame equipment, and stick with it.

I use 10 frame, but I'm fairly young (43) and in great shape, no bad back or knees. A lot of older beeks advocate the 8 frame medium super, and build the brood hive 3 boxes tall.

8-frame mediums are supposedly far easier to lift and manipulate than 10 frame. Something to consider.
 
#4 ·
I use 10 frame, but I'm fairly young (43) and in great shape, no bad back or knees. A lot of older beeks advocate the 8 frame medium super, and build the brood hive 3 boxes tall.

8-frame mediums are supposedly far easier to lift and manipulate than 10 frame. Something to consider.
8-frame equipment is also good if you want to include younger kids. The 10-frame equipment is too big and heavy for most pre-teens to manage.
 
#3 ·
for a beginner I would advise langstroth hives over top bar hives. I think they are easier to manipulate without damaging the comb. start small ( 2 hives) you will grow faster than you think. be ready for anything to give you more bees. Initial setup would be close to home, easy access, level ground to start with. build everything you can, ( just to understand what it takes to make it). consider your health age and strength when deciding on brood box size, (deep vs medium, 8 frame vs 10 frame); your patience level and finances when deciding on foundation,(wax, wired wax, duraguilt, pierco, foundationless); your comfort with bees for your basic equiptment ( gloves and veil vs full bee suit). beginners have a year before a serious honey crop, so they should have an idea if they want to continue before they need to consider honey supers. by the time they are getting ready for that, they need to consider what they are going to do for them. again consider age, health, strength, and access to the hives (shallow =35 lbs, med = 50 lbs, deeps = 90 lbs). cut comb and crush and strain use no foundation, ross rounds need a different frame, extractors are hard on unsupported wax. I know I am missing a ton of other things they need to consider, but i think this is the high lights
 
#51 ·
Re: h) Hive design, what type?

for a beginner I would advise langstroth hives over top bar hives. I think they are easier to manipulate without damaging the comb. ...
again consider age, health, strength, and access to the hives (shallow =35 lbs, med = 50 lbs, deeps = 90 lbs).
What I ended up doing was building a one-story hive similar to a top bar, that I can use lang frames in. My advancing age loves it.:D
 
#6 ·
I have enjoyed using all mediums. It's been very nice to be able to move frames and boxes from top to bottom without having to think about it.

For those of you who are good with a saw and measurement. I started off by buying 2 medium 10 frame boxes. After making sure that they were exactly the same. I assembled one and used the other one to size up parts. I switched the type of joint on the end to rabbit joints and used tightbond 2 and screws. With the value wood at menards and a table saw I was able to make a medium for 2 dollars. After you make a box you should check it with the store bought assembled one and also put 10 frames in it to see if they fit just as good. For a hand hold I use two small wood chunks. I've really enjoyed making my own boxes and painting them all sorts of colors.
 
#20 ·
2 deeps or 3 mediums to start out?

I have enjoyed using all mediums. It's been very nice to be able to move frames and boxes from top to bottom without having to think about it.
i am trying to decide between 2 deeps or 3 mediums for my first hives.

while i certainly see the advantages of the mediums (weight and interchangeability) i wonder what people think about how to deal with getting nucs - as they seem to be primarily raised in deeps.

are there other equipment issues that i will run into if i have no deeps in my hives? things like "drone frames" or anything else that might only come in deep?

i have even seen it setups of 1 deep sandwiched between 2 mediums (in the Ross Conrad book Natural Beekeeping: Organic Approaches to Modern Apiculture)

thanks in advance for any thoughts
 
#8 ·
I like the standard 10 frame. I think most like the finger cut or finger-lock corners the most. Does anyone like Rabbeted Hive Bodies rather than the finger-lock corners?

Still trying to work on making my own hives, but having problems with the handles.
 
#10 ·
I like the rabbeted better, less end grain to rot and with todays glue you don't have to worry about them falling apart. I know that if you keep them painted one joint will last as long as another IMO however by some of the photos I've seen of a lot of hives painting seems to be the last thing on the agenda. I also like the 8 frame hive with deep bodies and medium supers, how often are you going to be lifting the brood chambers and as to selling 8 frame equipment I didn't get into this to resell it later if thats your thinking maybe you should reconsider BeeKeeping as a hobby! Just my opinion!
 
#9 ·
The box joint is far superior as long as you glue all the surfaces. They'll weather much better and have a lot less problems with expansion/contraction over their lifetime.

Just use cleats (1" x 2") fastened to the outside for handles. Far easier than trying to cut handles into the sides.
 
#12 ·
Hi Eaglerock, you mention some joints that I am not familiar with. The traditionals are finger joints. I have used half bling dovetails and liked them because I don't like end wood exposed. Now I am using Miter Lock joints that have no end wood exposure at all and seem to me to be the strongest. I use TiteBondIII glue and find there is very little exposure of the glue to areas where the bees can get to. Finger Joints on the table saw are a bit dangerous to me and if there is just a little variation in the spacing the corners don't match up. But then again, it's just my opinion. Take care and have fun
 
#14 ·
hive design what type

I too make all my own Hives I perfere the box joints it is easy to square up
and for cutting hand holes in the box that is not a problem just make a mark on the saw fence in line with arbor and make marks on the inside of hive in center with small square then place a mark on each side of center then set hive on saw with first mark with mark on saw fence and push to end marks and lift off all cut are madewith dado blade if slot is not big enough just move fence on way or the other after all cut have been made one time
 
#15 ·
I'm using all 10 frame equipment, when I get older or sore,I will put a piece of1 inch high density styrofoam in place of the #1 and #10 frames, even a little extra insulation. In our club everyone uses 10 frame , boxes are donated to the club , covers bottoms , its all 10 frame..
 
#17 · (Edited)
{Cutting and pasting a reply I wrote earlier today on a farming forum to another excited newbe planning to start beekeeping with a TB hive:]

I worked (minimally) with bees many years ago and am getting back into it this year. I'm in the middle of a 12 week beekeeping course run by the Western Maine Beekeeper's association and strongly recommend such a course for other new beekeepers.

I am also interested in the simplicity of top bar hives but I'll be starting again with one Langstroth hive. There are a number of reasons for this. I have a little experience with that type. The course I'm taking revolves around it. The members of the association are all using those hives and those are the folks I will need to help me out in a pinch. That hive can be a source of bees for a new top bar hive. And the Langstroth is a reliable type of hive for over-wintering in the frigid north.

In short, I need to get myself back up to speed in the usual method of beekeeping before I decide another method is "better for the bees" as you say.

There are beekeepers using top bar hives successfully in the north. There are also beeks using top bars in Langstroth hives, a method I will be trying also. Also small-cell foundation in frames. There are many ways to keep bees naturally and I would be mistaken if I thought I had the knowledge to say which one is better for the bees without having the experience of trying them all or a means of comparison. (I've read a lot about TB hives and a lot makes good sense to me but before I commit to any "ideology," I need a bit experience to determine its suitability.)

The hive I am starting this Spring from a nuc could possibly be split later to start a top bar hive. Or I might be lucky enough to capture a swarm. In any case, I'll have a top bar hive ready to try.

{end of cut/paste}

Just my opinion. Subject to change.

Wayne
 
#23 ·
Please remember, this forum (How to start beekeeping) and thread (Hive design) is for very specific topics and not for general beekeeping discussion. Please keep messages on topic. We're developing an FAQ with these posts.
 
#24 ·
is there a better place to have posted this question about hives?



pardon my new-ness to this forum & apologies if i posted in the wrong spot.
is there a better place to have posted this question about hive configurations?
it seemed like the most logical.....
 
#25 ·
The idea of this forum is to input information, not so much to ask questions. My intention is not to run you off, just wanting to remind everyone again what the purpose and goal of this forum is. General discussion needs to go to the Bee Forum. This applies to the bantering about the definition of joints that took place earlier.
 
#26 ·
Sorry about the joint banter, Barry. I'll admit it drifted a bit, but I think there's some very useful and topical information in there.

Anyway, to stay on topic. . .

The nuc issue is why I decided to go with 1 deep in the brood chambers and the rest mediums. I notice a few others out here doing the same. It's kind of a compromise. In my opinion being able to exchange frames with available nucs is far more important than being able to exchange frames between brood and supers. By having one of each, you can put anything into the brood chamber that you need to.

Just my $.02.
 
#27 ·
From the bee's point of view, a hive should provide enough space for a good queen to lay and storage space for the years food supply.

This varies somewhat with the race of bee and where the hive is located. Usually the square inches of comb space provided by a double deep hive configuration is sufficient, if the comb is properly drawn.

The different hive styles or configurations are for the benefit of the beekeeper and that varies from person to person. What is the most important, cost or ease of handling boxes? Why are bees kept, for income or just for the pleasure of keeping bees?

If inital cost is most important then the fewer boxes/frames needed to give the required square inches of comb space would be best. If cost is not the most important but ease of handling boxes is, then more of the smaller boxes/frames would be the way to go.

Just remember, you must meet or EXCEDE the required square inches of comb space and the comb MUST BE PROPERLY DRAWN.

Beginning hobby beekeepers should start with standard Langstroth boxes of the depth they prefer. All manipulations and techniques that new beekeepers must learn are described in the beekeeping manuals and are based on this style box. If for some reason a beekeeper decides quit standard size Langstroth equipment is easy to sell.

My prefered hive configurations are one deep body and two mediums, or four mediums. Both styles are easy for hobby beekeepers to handle, provide ample space for the bees and are simple to checkerboard for swarm control.
 
#28 ·
Re: g) Hive design, what type?

Wished I come upon this site before I started...I went with the basic beginners 2-hive 10-framer set up. Everything was ok until I lifted a chuck full 10 framer deep. Big wake-up on the back strain issue. Jeez, was I surprised! I can't imagine somebody with a lot of 10-frame hives, starting a day of serious hive manipulation on the schedule.

Currently running 2 hive, 10framers. In spring I intend to add 2 eight framers. I realize I'll have an equipment compatibility issue, but I'm just a hobbyist and I love experimenting.

I want to thank all the folks who take to the time to answer all the endless questions us wanna-bee-beeks come up with.
 
#29 ·
Re: g) Hive design, what type?

I started with all 8 frame mediums.

Things to consider, all of the nuc's for purchase in the area are shifting to mediums from deeps. All mediums makes for more compatibility. A typical 5 frame medium nuc could be place into a 8 frame or a 10 frame without a problem. The medium format keeps the weight down and limits mishandling full supers. Dropping or banging full supers together tends to make the bee less happy.

As for the 8 frame vs 10 frame, that's a different story. I find that the added height of the overall hive caused by the 8 frame format conflicts with the weight savings. A 40 frame hive in the 10 frame format is less then 4ft tall, and 40 frame hive in the 8 frame format can be 5ft or more. Keep this in mind if your a little shorter, you have bad winds, or need to raise your hive a little taller to keep the small animals away.

Just my opinion, but I own all 8 frame mediums, and will stay that way for now.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Re: g) Hive design, what type?

40 frame hive in the 8 frame format can be 5ft or more.
?? 40 frames divided by 8 per box = 5 boxes * 6.25 inches per box = 2 ft. 7.25 inches + a little over a foot for the hive stand, bottom board, vented top cover, etc... and you're still only at 4 ft. for 40 frames.

The height difference between a 10 frame and 8 frame setup for 40 frames would be exactly 6.25 inches (if using mediums, which you said you were).
 
#33 ·
Re: g) Hive design, what type?

The optimum hive design depends to a degree on where you live and on your objectives in keeping bees.

1. Standard langstroth equipment is pretty much tested over time and proven to work. It has some deficiencies such as weight of a deep full of honey. Still, it is easily sold and easily replaced if you are buying equipment.

2. A square box based on Langstroth dimensions so standard frames fit with a total of 12 frames in a box is a viable alternative. Medium depth is probably a better configuration for this size since weight becomes a significant issue with deeps. The biggest advantage of this size is that the base is larger so colonies don't stack quite so high. The disadvantages include not standard so not as readily sold, and it is a bit of an odd fit for overwintering colonies.

3. Eight frame equipment based on Langstroth dimensions is viable in most of the U.S. and is preferred by some pollination operations. It has advantages when working the bees because the hive is lighter even when full of honey. Disadvantages include overwintering problems in severe winter areas and purchasing them can be difficult because only a few manufacturers support them.

4. Horizontal hives of various designs such as the Kenya topbar hive are viable but mostly limited to hobbyists. For a given size hive, they require the least material to build. This hive design is at a slight disadvantage in severe winter areas because bees have a natural tendency to move up onto combs of honey immediately above the brood nest.


While many hive designs have been tried over the years such as the Stewart vertical octagon hive and various versions of tubular hives both vertical and horizontal, none of them are practical from a beekeepers perspective.

So what would be an optimum design for a hive?

1. A single brood chamber should hold all the brood and bees needed by the colony.
2. It should be easily portable so beekeepers can manipulate it with ease.
3. Honey should be readily removed and easy to extract.
4. pest control should be easy to implement. This could include protection from tropical hornets, varroa, and diseases.
5. It should insulate from the worst of cold external temperatures.
6. It must permit colony manipulation by the beekeeper with minimum disruption of the colony.
7. It must be durable.

There are several other desirable features, but the above gives an idea. From the above, you can readily see that Langstroth dimensions come close but miss out on several items.

Darrel Jones
 
#34 ·
Re: g) Hive design, what type?

If a person just starting out were to ask me, I'd recommend eight-frame Langstroth hives. I have all 10-frame equipment. The weight is an issue, as many people have noted. But the other issue is over-wintering. In the long northern winters the bees move up for stores. Invariably I have full frames of honey on both sides of lower deeps and a cluster up against the inner cover by spring. The cluster has a much harder time moving laterally rather than vertically. It occurs to me that in their natural home -- hollow trees -- bees thrive in much narrower spaces. I think the bees will get better use of winter stores with an eight-frame configuration. The extra height on a narrower footprint will be an issue in high-wind unprotected areas. Even though I will have compatibility issues I intend to add a couple of eight-frame colonies to experiment with and see how wintering goes.
 
#35 ·
Re: g) Hive design, what type?

>Disadvantages include overwintering problems in severe winter areas and purchasing them can be difficult because only a few manufacturers support them.

One of the things I LIKE about eight frame hives is they winter BETTER. I don't know of any manufacturer who does not now offer eight frame boxes. Some don't list them, but I don't know any who don't have them.

As far as height, that's one reason I went with top entrances, I could then put the hive on a four by four stand (3 1/2" off the ground) without skunk problems and that saved me another box in height.
 
#36 ·
Re: g) Hive design, what type?

>As far as height, that's one reason I went with top entrances, I could then put the hive on a four by four stand (3 1/2" off the ground) without skunk problems and that saved me another box in height.

Mike,

I'm a rookie getting ready to start my first hives. Are skunk problems the main reason you went to top entrance? Would I be able to set up a top entrance with my Brushy hive top feeder?

Thanks for all of your helpful postings.

Jim
 
#37 ·
Re: g) Hive design, what type?

>Are skunk problems the main reason you went to top entrance?

They were the reason I went with top entrances. However, now I see a lot of other advantages that were not my original reason. Like grass never blocks the entrance, nor does snow, and I never have to worry about mice.

>Would I be able to set up a top entrance with my Brushy hive top feeder?

Two shingle shims will make a top entrance under the hive top feeder. Yes, I do it all the time. But if you are feeding you may want to also cut a piece of something for an entrance reducer to put across the front.
 
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