Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Casper, Wy, USA
    Posts
    804

    Default Using Two Day Old Queen Cells

    Hi Guys,

    Larry Connor, in the January 2009 American Bee Journal, page 53, writes about French beekeepers using two day old queen cells, instead of sealed cells. They modified this technique which is used by eastern European beekeepers.

    They are easier/cheaper to produce. More robust to distribute. Acceptance can be quickly determined.

    Before leaving my queen business, I did a little testing along this same line of thought. Using an observation hive and a few queen right and queenless nucs, I grafted larva. Put them in a starter finisher. Then removed them at various times. Put them in the ob hive and nucs. And watched how the bees reacted. And what kind of cells/queens they raised.

    The youngest larva were almost always readily accepted. Acceptance dropped off when the transferred larva were older and the nucs queen right.

    And the younger larva were incredibly robust. They could withstand transportation shock, initial neglect by the nuc bees, temperature variations, etc. much better than older larva or sealed cells. I think temperatures cooler than broodnest temps actually enhanced and extended the use of the youngest larva.

    The only drawback, and it's common for all grafted larva, is their sensitivity to dry air. I build a carrier out of blue construction foam insulation. Drilled holes halfway through it. This allowed a wide based JZ BZ cup to set inside it while the wide base supported and sealed the opening.

    I'd fill the holes with water. Give it a shake so they would be half full. And then insert the grafted cups into it.

    There are some timing losses using young larva, for very short season areas. But when larger mating nucs are used, a two day old cell could get more attention than it would in a conventional queen/cell rearing setup.

    Some thoughts.

    Merry Christmas
    BWrangler
    I once wrangled bees. But now, knowing better, I just let them bee.
    http://talkingstick.me/category/bees/

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Sacramento,California,USA
    Posts
    3,604

    Default

    Thanks BWrangler for this thread, it's good information and sounds logical to me from my small experience of raising queens and making up mating nucs.

    Ray
    “When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world.” – John Muir

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
    Posts
    1,162

    Default

    How do the queen weights compare to other techniques? I would have guessed that very large robust cell builders would result in larger cells. Very interesting stuff, thanks for sharing.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Greenville, TX, USA
    Posts
    4,364

    Default

    Sounds like an interesting way to setup nucs.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Sacramento,California,USA
    Posts
    3,604

    Default

    I do see one problem with using 2 day old cells instead of using 10 day old cells, and that is the 8 days difference, causing decreased broodrearing (because of lost nurse bees) or workforce reduction from making up the nucs 8 days earlier than needed for giving 10 day old queen cells. One of the reasons for queen rearing is to be able to create the maximum number of queens with the least amout of resources used. If a queen lays 1 to 2 thousand or more eggs in a day, and you reduce the number of nurse bees and work force enough to make nucs, then you've lost 8 to 16 or more thousand new bees for using 2 day old cells instead of using 10 day old cells.
    “When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world.” – John Muir

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Greenville, TX, USA
    Posts
    4,364

    Default

    You haven't really lost any bees doing it that way. You just delayed those bees a couple of weeks. I agree that mature queen cells are quicker, but the ease of this makes it worth a try.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI USA
    Posts
    2,177

    Default Re: Using Two Day Old Queen Cells

    Reviving an old thread. For those of us interested in a brood break as mite control, and dedicating a single hive as a starter this might be a good way to go. I imagine planting the cells in the starter, taking them out 2 days later and putting them in a 5 frame nuc stocked with 2 frames of brood, bees, and stores to finish and mate, then restocking the starter with cells, and so on until you had all the 5 frame nucs you wanted.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,322

    Default Re: Using Two Day Old Queen Cells

    If you are interested in getting the most effective brood break then the two day cell is not what you are looking for as you are reducing your break by around 10 days. This system does have some advantages though, and bwrangler gives us a nice first hand account of his experiences with these. What I have learned is if you have a need to transport cells, optimum times would be at two or three days (after grafting) and again at 10 to 11 days. Avoid the early days of pupation especially days 5-8.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    3,989

    Default Re: Using Two Day Old Queen Cells

    This would eliminate tearing down of cells in the finisher and the need for an incubator, but the loss of brood frame production in QR mating nucs would be a pretty big trade off. It might be really good for a club project though.
    Since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI USA
    Posts
    2,177

    Default Re: Using Two Day Old Queen Cells

    Jim, good point but I think I can use a Roland Variation. I follow Roland's method of raising sealed brood above an excluder, and making the nuc with brood that has been sealed for a week should offset some of the lost brood break time.
    Last edited by Adrian Quiney WI; 12-28-2013 at 07:48 AM. Reason: Jim's "V" suggestion adopted :-)

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,322

    Default Re: Using Two Day Old Queen Cells

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Quiney WI View Post
    Jim, good point but I think I can use a Roland variation. I follow Roland's method of raising sealed brood above an excluder, and making the nuc with brood that has been sealed for a week should offset some of the lost brood break time.
    Agreed. The "Roland Variation" I like that. Note the capitalized V. Perhaps it needs to be part of the Beesource lexicon.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    3,989

    Default Re: Using Two Day Old Queen Cells

    What is this Roland Variation of which you speak?
    Since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI USA
    Posts
    2,177

    Default Re: Using Two Day Old Queen Cells

    Simply put, by a disciple and not the master: It is a way of keeping the broodnest open and honey in supers by exchanging mostly sealed brood frames from below an excluder with emerged brood frames from above it. The queen resides in a single deep. Roland has said that a single deep is not enough space in WI in the spring, and a double deep is too much space. Instead of rotating boxes you rotate brood frames as they empty. The rest of the deep above the excluder is filled with dedicated clean honey frames. It is intensive management, but it works.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Gainesboro, Tennessee, USA.
    Posts
    398

    Default Re: Using Two Day Old Queen Cells

    Sounds like something I wouldn't mine trying myself.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Jefferson Co, TX
    Posts
    584

    Default Re: Using Two Day Old Queen Cells

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    If you are interested in getting the most effective brood break then the two day cell is not what you are looking for as you are reducing your break by around 10 days. This system does have some advantages though, and bwrangler gives us a nice first hand account of his experiences with these. What I have learned is if you have a need to transport cells, optimum times would be at two or three days (after grafting) and again at 10 to 11 days. Avoid the early days of pupation especially days 5-8.
    If someone was wanting to do a brood break and do a quick treatment with oxalic acid while the queen was still a pupae, (or just after her emergence) would that be an issue.

    Sounds like this would be easier to try and find out if the installation of a cell is accepted.
    Started 9/13, building slowly, now @ 7 Lang hives + 5 nucs, and treatment style not decided yet

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI USA
    Posts
    2,177

    Default Re: Using Two Day Old Queen Cells

    Pat, I cannot speak to the risk to the queen, but wouldn't it work just as well to do your acid in the nuc while it was queenless, and then plant the queen cell?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,322

    Default Re: Using Two Day Old Queen Cells

    Quote Originally Posted by marshmasterpat View Post
    If someone was wanting to do a brood break and do a quick treatment with oxalic acid while the queen was still a pupae, (or just after her emergence) would that be an issue.

    Sounds like this would be easier to try and find out if the installation of a cell is accepted.
    I wouldn't do the OA application until the queen was mated and had been laying a few days but not long enough for their to be capped brood. We remove the old queen and install a 10/11 day old cell two days later. Assuming the queen will begin laying in another 13 days then add another 8 days for the new larvae to be optimum for varroa infestation. 8+13+1 day for the cell to hatch means you ideally want to give the OA (or other) treatment right at the 3 week mark from cell installation for maximum effectiveness. If however you choose to install a 2 day old cell you change the math considerably and increase the treatment window considerably (nor decrease as I stated earlier) with the downside being the growth of your nuc will be delayed considerably. I still wouldn't risk doing any type of phoretic mite treatment until your new queen is "up and running" however. So use the Roland Variation at your own discretion, knowing that any sealed brood you move into your nuc brings with it unhatched varroa.
    The advantages of a two day old cell, then, are primarily that they are easily handled at that stage for transport to another location for whatever your reasons. For my part I will still have the most confidence in a well developed 10\11 day old cell if for no other reason than that there is always a certain risk that any cell won't develop properly, though that number is normally really low, in certain conditions (yellow jasmine or black cell virus) it can get quite high.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Heavener Oklahoma
    Posts
    928

    Default Re: Using Two Day Old Queen Cells

    There is some things that needs to be done when you let a divide or mating nuc complete a 2 day old cell to finish building them
    #1 you have to be very easy with queen cells if
    you bump the sides you will mess them up, so it will take more time placeing them in nucs

    #2 you will have to go back in about 7 days and knock off Em queen cell cause they will build them if you place frames of brood in making up nucs

    I first started doing it about 5 years ago using about 18 hour larva out of my nicot grid with out placeing them in cell builder got only about 50% turn out very nice large queens about 90% of the time

    Using a grafted 2 day cell out of a cell starter/finisher you will get about a 80-95 turn out if you go back through nuc an knock off Em queen cells
    Last edited by Velbert; 12-29-2013 at 11:31 AM.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Heavener Oklahoma
    Posts
    928

    Default Re: Using Two Day Old Queen Cells



    2days from Grafting

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Heavener Oklahoma
    Posts
    928

    Default Re: Using Two Day Old Queen Cells

    The way i like doing it best is when i pull the mated and laying queen out of the mating nuc is on the seventh day after removing queen is knock off all emergency queen cells, then place the 2 day old graft into the queenless Mating nuc then this cell is the only one being fed with royal jelly you get a very well fed and built qc.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads