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  1. #101
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    Mar 2008
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    Nomadland, NY, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camp9 View Post

    How do you keep all that pesticide laden rain from hitting your crops?

    Camp
    Good point. But a better question would be, "How do you justifiy your behavior when you poison the rain itself?"

  2. #102
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    Mar 2008
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    Nomadland, NY, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    1 So why does CCD only show up at specific times of the year, rather than throughout the year or when neonicotinoids are being used most heavily?

    2 And why didn't this appear in 2000? Or 2001? Why only in 2006 and 2007 (and maybe 2008?)?

    3 And why single out specific groups of pesticides or even specific pesticides?

    4 My suspicion is still that CCD is "caused" by a number of variables, and I suspect that prominent among the variables might be stress from moving and crowding and manipulating bees to fit artificial production systems, and nutrition from lack of diversity in forage.

    1.) In my understanding CCD has reared its head year round.
    2.) If anything the timetable proves the neonics involvement in the ccd epidemic. The first neo nics were approved in the early 90's, but this was on a VERY limited scale. The years 2002-2005 mark the FIRST MASS distribution of the neonics. During these years they were slammed through approval and mass produced and distributed. The timetable you mention is one of the major pieces of evidence FOR the neonics involvement in this thing.
    3.) See answer 2.
    4.) Certainly bees are ill for a variety of reasons. Certainly. The issue here is that many many bees are being killed by a specific modality (neonic pesticide poisoning) and that this is being called ccd.

    Keick, out of curiousity, who do you work for? USDA? University? Bayer? Syngenta? EPA?

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Auger Hole, MN
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    433

    Default Sylus -> hey man.....what's up man?

    please send me by email your post office and zipcode and I will send you a free copy of this book general delivery so you can still keep your privacy.

    http://www.amazon.com/Fruitless-Fall.../dp/1596915374

    you clearly need to bone up on some facts about beekeeping and CCD in general. I'm serious.....I have 20 copies of this book on hand....

    this book has references for its conclusions not just blowing smoke with an anti societal attitude.

    let me read you a short bedtime story from this book,

    excerpts.. page 97
    What about Imidacloprid? Surprise only 7 pollen samples contained it (out of 196 samples from CCD affected hives). The 7 positive samples did not correlate with CCD.

    Two other chems did: fluvalinate and comaphous - the active chemicals in Apistan and Checkmite. ...fluvalinate appearing in 160 (pollen) samples anbd compaphous in 146 (pollen samples)

    mind you that means the bee bread got contaminated in the comb after collection.

    back to the bedtime story....

    EVERY SINGLE WAX sample was loaded with the stuff ( apistan and checkmite) levels where 3-5 times higher in weak or dying colonies - no smoking gun but certainly a red flag.

    hmmm let me guess the author of this book must be a putz for Bayer right? and the Frazier data he quotes - that too is rigged?

    Since you asked Keick if he worked for Bayer or USDA etc. Let me ask you a personal question or three.

    With Much Love!! Peace and Flowers and Tied Dyed Tshirts etc......
    Last edited by Barry; 12-29-2008 at 08:49 PM. Reason: personal jabs

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,398

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    There will be no more name calling and personal bickering or someone is going to find their access limited.
    Regards, Barry

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Ennis, TX USA
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    5,125

    Default Beesource Forum Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    There will be no more name calling and personal bickering or someone is going to find their access limited.
    Do you mean this rule?

    From:
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214524

    Personal attacks are never okay. We can disagree and debate a subject, which is fine. You'll find no "know-it-all's" here. No one on this list is in a position where they can't be questioned or disagreed with.
    Chuck Norris has a grizzly bear carpet in his room. The bear isn't dead it is just afraid to move.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Volga, SD
    Posts
    2,790

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    1.) In my understanding CCD has reared its head year round. -sylus p
    Really? That's the first I've heard of that. All the reports I've read or heard have been about CCD occuring in the fall to early winter.

    Maybe more importantly, exactly what symptoms are characteristic of only CCD and not other problems?

    2.) If anything the timetable proves the neonics involvement in the ccd epidemic. The first neo nics were approved in the early 90's, but this was on a VERY limited scale. The years 2002-2005 mark the FIRST MASS distribution of the neonics. During these years they were slammed through approval and mass produced and distributed. The timetable you mention is one of the major pieces of evidence FOR the neonics involvement in this thing. -sylus p
    While you're correct that neonicotinoids were first approved for used in the early 1990s, nicotine (which acts in the same way, and is where "neonicotinoids" take their name) has been around and used as a pesticide for much longer.

    And I'm not sure how/where you come up with the first "mass marketing" of neonicotinoids in 2002-2005. I'll have to dig out my references on amounts of classes of insecticides applied in the U. S. It sticks in my mind that the amounts of neonicotinoids applied in the U. S. have increased each year since 2000, but not all that much. I'll have to do some digging.

    4.) Certainly bees are ill for a variety of reasons. Certainly. The issue here is that many many bees are being killed by a specific modality (neonic pesticide poisoning) and that this is being called ccd. -sylus p
    While many bees might be killed by a "specific modality" (although the symptoms still seem surprisingly vague to me), labeling it specifically as "neonic pesticide poisoning" is almost certainly incorrect. Pesticides may be implicated in the long run, but have you ever seen a hive of bees poisoning by neonicotinoid pesticides? The symptoms are not in any way reminiscent of CCD. The symptoms are more similar to poisonings by other pesticides.

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    UP michigan
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    214

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Dingler View Post
    please send me by email your post office and zipcode and I will send you a free copy of this book general delivery so you can still keep your privacy.

    http://www.amazon.com/Fruitless-Fall.../dp/1596915374

    ...
    Sounds like a good read, I'll order one this week with their after the holidays shipping special.

    A lot of the equipment I have has really old brood comb and we've been replacing it with new. I'll have to make sure we do a complete switch over this spring and get rid of that old stuff. I wonder if anyone has sampled the wooden frames to see what the levels are. Probably should just get new frames and be done with it.

    Camp
    As wonderful as this life is, there are days I really look forward to the next. :)

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Loganville, GA
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    2,172

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    Just some fodder for the pile of thought's. There seems to be assumptions that lethal does are always incurred when mentioning these chemicals or concentrated extractions whatever you prefer to refer to them as. Would not the affects of any of them be varied depending on dosage? Are long term affects being looked over at non-lethal doses?
    "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." Winston Churchill

  9. #109
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    UP michigan
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    214

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    [QUOTE=

    Two other chems did: fluvalinate and comaphous - the active chemicals in Apistan and Checkmite. ...fluvalinate appearing in 160 (pollen) samples anbd compaphous in 146 (pollen samples)

    mind you that means the bee bread got contaminated in the comb after collection.

    ....[/QUOTE]

    Wouldn't that be ironic if in all our attempts to help keep our bees healthy we ended up contributing to the problem. Hindsite is 20/20, and it's always worth a try, but once realized it's not helping, time to move on to something else.
    The last two bee journals had the article about dusting with powdered sugar for mites. When my brother got me into beekeeping 30 years ago that was one of his common practices. If fluvalinate and comaphous are found to contribute to CCD and hive health in general, that would be great. Even if neo nic's are found to be the problem, that would be great too so we can correct the problem and move on. But to remove products that may not contribute to the onset of CCD would only invite more problems. I used to use Apistan until 4 years ago. Now we just try to do the dusting, and buy queens that hopefully have some resistance.

    Camp
    As wonderful as this life is, there are days I really look forward to the next. :)

  10. #110
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    Feb 2006
    Location
    UP michigan
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    214

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bizzybee View Post
    Just some fodder for the pile of thought's. There seems to be assumptions that lethal does are always incurred when mentioning these chemicals or concentrated extractions whatever you prefer to refer to them as. Would not the affects of any of them be varied depending on dosage? Are long term affects being looked over at non-lethal doses?
    Exactly!! I've use a lot of different pesticides in our farming opperation, organic and non organic. We use IMP practices. Dosage and timing are everything.

    Camp
    As wonderful as this life is, there are days I really look forward to the next. :)

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Nomadland, NY, USA
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    We all need air, water and food to live. The use of pesticides puts these at risk.

    The neonics have returned billion dollar profits to Bayer. The public has not had transperancy nor cooperation from this organization. The governmental agencies charged with oversight have not demanded this transparency. I find this corporate and governemental behavior deviod of decency.

    Bud writes, "With Much Love!! Peace and Flowers and Tied Dyed Tshirts etc......"

    Now I can do without the tie dyes but I can't do without love and peace. And without flowers there would be no fruits, aka no food and no bees. None of us would live very long if the flowering plants went away. There is a need to have reverence for the natural world.

    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -Ghandi-

    This thread has gotten pretty long though eh? I don't need the last word. We'll see each other on other threads no doubt. The floor is open for laughs, for battle and for victory....

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Austin, Texas, USA
    Posts
    3

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    Not to travel off the topic too much, but I find this thread very interesting, as I'm working on my senior science fair project right now, over the effects of pesticides on honeybee memory.

    I've been looking into the concentrations of systemic pesticides in pollen and nectar that bees have access to, and the only real information I've found has come from Wikipedia (which I know isn't the best source for anything). Does anyone know where this information came from? (it's the set of studies between 1999 and 2000) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacl...bee_population

    Thanks for all the information in this post already!

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    College Station, Texas
    Posts
    6,973

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    camp9 writes:
    Are long term affects being looked over at non-lethal doses?

    tecumseh:
    what you speak to... ie research methodology 'could be' a part of the problem. that is... the typical way of look at these kinds of products by an entomologist is a concept call LD-50 which is jargon for the dosage (as I remember it is so much product per body weight of subject) that is required to KILL 50% of a test sample. so non lethal dosages are never really discussed or considered. these 'side effect' may be listed on the label as a warning and this in itself can lead to other problems.... like encouraging folks to see cause when at best there is only a loose association.

    rsullivan... how are those little test subjects doing?

  14. #114

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    I know that UGA is currently conducting studies on the behavioral effects of sublethal doses of a variety of common pesticides found in bee hives.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

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