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  1. #61
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    Feb 2007
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    los angeles, ca
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    109

    Cool

    What Data says it dosen't
    kirk-o
    I like bugs

  2. #62
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    Dec 2005
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    Volga, SD
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    Default

    Trying to find data that says it doesn't is attempting to prove a negative. Not so easy to do.

    But I'll throw some at you: I've exposed bees from several of my hives to levels of neonicotinoids (imidacloprid and clothianidin among them) high enough to cause some acute pesticide poisoning of some of the workers. None of the hives have succumbed to CCD. So, if it's a simple cause-and-effect relationship, my experience rules out "exposure to neonicotinoids leads to CCD."

  3. #63
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    Aug 2003
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    Lancaster, Ky. / Frostproof Fl.
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    neonnic insecticides kill by weakened imune system and mental abnormalities......CCD bees have from what I have read numerous fungus and their intestines are a mess.....suspicious along with the mental abnormailities ...bees fly off and dont come back. I'll be the first to admit there are other problems (miteicides especially chumophus along with apistan in wax and their affect on queens and drones) nutrition.....the weather just hasnt been normal with all the droughts and stress related to migratory beekeeping. BUt IknowI'll never convince you neoncic. has anything to do with CCD.....but when the fat lady sings Ill bet it does someday.

    Do any of you think that if lets say Penn St for instance just as a example came to the conclusion that neonnics were responsiable dont you think bayer would pull research $$$ . I agree the scientist are hard working and honest...... but research can still be tainted especially research by bayer on their product.....if you dont believe that you are living in a fantasy world.

  4. #64
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    Dec 2005
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    neonnic insecticides kill by weakened imune system and mental abnormalities...... -suttonbeeman
    No, that's not correct. Look up "mode of action for neonicotinoid pesticides." You'll find that it's an acetylcholine receptor agonist.

    If you wish to believe neonicotinoids are the cause, that's your choice. But you're attempting to convince others on this thread simply based on your personal belief, not on any hard evidence. If you have hard evidence, produce it, please.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Nomadland, NY, USA
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    Default

    Goodness gracious look what I started... I'm sorry.

    Some thoughts.

    1.) We WILL NOT starve if we stop using pesticides. That is a lie. You may not think its a lie, you may believe the lie. But it is a lie.

    2.) Starvation is imposed on cultures and peoples by "Principalities and powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world and spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12

    3.) Pesticides are poison, the world you're sitting on is one place, when you poison a part of it, you're poisoning the one physical thing we all share. You have no right to poison me, I have no right to poison you.

    4.) Corruption is real. See the history of the world. There has always been corruption. Let us not be ignorant jingoists or corporate facists.

    Give Martin Luther King a try. http://www.bushflash.com/mlk.html

  6. #66
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    Mar 2008
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    Nomadland, NY, USA
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    157

    Default

    Much Love To All.

  7. #67
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    Dec 2005
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    Volga, SD
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    Just a couple more thoughts:

    "Pesticide" does not equal "bad."

    "Pesticide" does not mean "unnatural." And poisons occur naturally, too. In fact, some of the most effective pesticides right now are either "natural" or derived from natural pesticides.

    Notice the "nicotine" in neonicotinoids? Neonicotinoids are synthetic chemicals similar in form and function to nicotine, and nicotine is a natural insecticide (pesticide) produced by plants to reduce feeding by some insects. Nicotine in and of itself is an effective pesticide.

    Also, don't equate "organic" with "uses no pesticides." Some pesticides (such as Bt and some natural plant compounds) can be and are used in "organic" operations.

    Just some thoughts. Not trying to cause offense, just wishing to make sure that some of these ideas are clarified.

  8. #68

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    Neonicotinoids are synthetic chemicals similar in form and function to nicotine, and nicotine is a natural insecticide (pesticide) produced by plants to reduce feeding by some insects.
    In a similar fashion, fluvalinate (active ingredient in Apistan strips) is a pyrethroid. Pyrethroids are a second generation synthetic compound based on pyrethrum, an extract of chrysanthemums (mums). And as you pointed out, just because its of natural origins doesn't necessarily mean that it is harmless.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  9. #69
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    Nov 2007
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    Lycoming New York
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    193

    Default

    Years ago when I got Mothers Earth News there was a system for using camels Cigs. for a pesticide for the garden. Tony

  10. #70
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    Feb 2006
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    UP michigan
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    Maybe I missed it, but are there any beekeepers and farmers on this board that use pesticides for growing crops? I'm one who does and understand both worlds on this subject. I'd love to respond to so many of the comments that have been posted but there's no since in being redundent. I'd like to know who is making there FULL living (income) beekeeping and production Ag. that is on this board? It seems most people making the decisions that will impact what I do are made by those who have never lived in the shoes of those they effect with their decisions. Who here farm and have bee's both and live and feed their families? And out of those have you seen the effects of your practices being positive or negative to your beekeeping operations in relation to CCD or any other problems?

    Camp
    As wonderful as this life is, there are days I really look forward to the next. :)

  11. #71
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    Jan 2006
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    Default

    Simply put Camp, because of your choice of livelihood in supporting yourself and your family you assume responsibility to all of those affected by your actions.

    If you were to make Popsicles for a living. You don't have the right to use gray water from your septic system or sticks from pressure treated lumber because it's cheaper for you to purchase. Increasing your profits to better serve yourself and your family is no excuse for putting everyone else at risk and diminishing their health and well being.

    Does that mean that "everyone else" doesn't sympathize with you? No it doesn't. It does mean that we are not willing to compromise our health so someone else can simply make a buck.
    "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." Winston Churchill

  12. #72
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    >but are there any beekeepers and farmers on this board that use pesticides for growing crops?

    yup, 700 hives, farm 4500 acres ,350 cow/calf to fat
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  13. #73
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    Mar 2008
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    Nomadland, NY, USA
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    Default

    Kieck >"Pesticide" does not mean "unnatural." And poisons occur naturally, too. In fact, some of the most effective pesticides right now are either "natural" or derived from natural pesticides.<

    So I have this really nice looking "natural" nightshade plant out in the backyard. I also happen to run a landscaping business and get a contract to plant out the grounds at the new elementary school. Since I know I can propogate the nightshade and sell it for a profit I include it all through the grounds. When one of the children eats it and dies, did I not contribute to their death?

    Without diverse flora and fauna human beings don't survive. We must eat something after all, and we are beekeepers, after all. So when an organization exists with the stated goal of producing poisons which destroy flora and fauna does not this organization jeopordize our survival?

    And as to the tension between ecology and economy which Camp calls to the light...

    We know that God created the ecological state of things long before man created the money system. Today we have a situation where monetary gain or loss is used as an excuse to contravene and misuse the natural systems of the creation.

    So what we see is that ecology is made the slave of money. And yet I cannot eat dollars or drink dimes and nickels. So this subservience which man has imposed upon ecology to economy we can see is unsustainable and inharmoniuos with a the glory of the creation.

  14. #74
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    Feb 2006
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    UP michigan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    >but are there any beekeepers and farmers on this board that use pesticides for growing crops?

    yup, 700 hives, farm 4500 acres ,350 cow/calf to fat
    We run 100 cow/calf, 650 acres, small grain, pumpkins, orchard, grapes, hay, and grass seed. Were working on getting up to over 100 hives again. So are you seeing any ill effects on you bees from your or your neighbors farming practices?

    Camp
    As wonderful as this life is, there are days I really look forward to the next. :)

  15. #75
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    Feb 2008
    Location
    Auger Hole, MN
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    433

    Default urban legends

    the facts are pesticides rarely are documented in honeybee losses

    in Eric Mussens recent Newsletter Nov/Dec08 he says

    "A group of forward-looking com-mercial beekeepers took it upon themselves to contact administrators from EPA and asked to discuss their concerns about honey bee-pesticide interactions. Given the history of previous, explosive exchanges, both sides had to take a deep breath and approach the concerns cautiously. One detail that really caught the attention of the beekeepers was the fact that, at their reporting level, EPA lists only two reports of bee kills in 2006 and none be-tween 2003 and 2005. Therefore, it seemed a bit odd to EPA representatives that the beekeepers felt so strongly about this issue."

    Sorry folks but pesticides are just not even a top ten cause of honey bee loses in the USA. The top ten causes are all beekeeper related except the number one cause MOTHER NATURE.

    Urban granola munchers who never have had more then a tiny backyard garden and never spent any time living in the country have unfounded fears of pesticides and such. It all sounds politically correct over a $6 cup of latte in some cool coffee house to condemn Industrial Farming while they eat their cupcakes full of hemp and pumpkin seeds .

    Unless you are doing paid pollination, the chances of losing your bees to a pesticide kill is about 10,000:1

    The hobbyist beek that naively killed off his/her hive through lack of experience is often convinced they are not the cause and look externally to CCD or pesticides. They read on the internet how these chemical labels says lethal to bees and can't comprehend what that really means.

    But Hobby Beekeepers are most likely more lethal to bees then pesticides applied per label!

  16. #76
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    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default

    >Unless you are doing paid pollination, the chances of losing your bees to a pesticide kill is about 10,000:1

    Funny. Not doing pollination I've lost a lot of bees to pesticide kills twice in 34 years. Once to mosquito spraying by the city and once to aphid spraying by the farmers. That's a LOT higher than 10,000:1. Maybe 100:1 would be more accurate? Certainly a 1000:1 is more realistic. I'm sure a lost some bees I never noticed but those were major losses of bees. Piles of them.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  17. #77
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    UP michigan
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    Funny. Not doing pollination I've lost a lot of bees to pesticide kills twice in 34 years. Once to mosquito spraying by the city and once to aphid spraying by the farmers. That's a LOT higher than 10,000:1. Maybe 100:1 would be more accurate? Certainly a 1000:1 is more realistic. I'm sure a lost some bees I never noticed but those were major losses of bees. Piles of them.[/QUOTE]

    I'd have to agree. The farmers that know and care about bee's will go out of their way to use their pesticide of choice in a way safe to a bee, even beyond lable requirements. The damage comes from those who are not aware of what they might do potentionally to the bees or any polinator for that mater. And the worst offenders are the ones who don't care or never read a lable, or even find out the mode of action. To look at an extreme Sevin can be used when timed properly, but wouldn't be my pesticide of choice.

    Camp
    As wonderful as this life is, there are days I really look forward to the next. :)

  18. #78
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default

    >>So are you seeing any ill effects on you bees from your or your neighbors farming practices?

    Am I seeing ANY effects on my bees from neighbouring farming practices?
    You bet!

    For the bad, insecticide damages. I pull mainly off canola sunflowers and alfalfa and buchwheat. There hasnt been a bertha problem in canola for sometime now, but for those years bertha and dimond back are bad, bee damages are high. Sunflower tends to be a problem yearly, not so much killing the bees foraging on the heads, for usually these guys spray before bloom, its killing the bees passing over the fields. And with alfalfa and buckwheat, killing off the lygus bug in their crops can cause alot of problems,.

    BUT, dont forget these guys are growing the crops that I am reaping my huge honeycrop off. Without these crops, I yeild less than 1/3 of my average yeilds. These guys have a living to maintain, as do I,

    SO the whole pesticide issue is a responsability of BOTH the beekeeper and the land/crop grower. I understand exactly the position the grain farmer is faced with during a bug infestation, I also farm 4500 acres. We have to manage the bug infestations to protect our lively hood. At the same time we have to act responsably to minimize losses to the beekeepers who rely on our crops as their livelyhood.

    As a beekeeper, Its my responsability to communicate my yard locations, comments and concerns to the land owner/farmer. From there we build a relationship and work together during times of insecticide use to MINIMIZE bee losses, and MINIMIZE crop losses. The problem will never be completely solved, but we can both expect everything within reason is being done to avoid any major loss event.

    As beekeepers we tend to sit back and complain about our insecticide losses, yet these beekeepers never seem to do anything about it! Get off our buts and communicate positively to landowners, earn their respect, and build the relationship that will help relieve the problems that occur during the bug damage control in crops. We beekeepers expect farmers to grow the crop, and grow it to its full potential that provides us with a surplus of honey, yet we dont understand the need to maintain the crops potential during major bug infestations. Management of these bug infestations can be tricky, especially when trying to consider minimizing bee deaths, but it can be done successfully if the planning is in place,
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  19. #79
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    Aug 2003
    Location
    Lancaster, Ky. / Frostproof Fl.
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    983

    Default

    After reading Buds last post and at the risk of being booted off here I am 100 percent convinced Bud either works for a chemical company or has his head up to his neck completely up Auger Hole!! He needs to talk to numerous beekeepers doing pollination especially cucumbers, mellons and also beekeepers in Orange Grove areas.....hate to say it but he doesnt have a clue to the truth! All will be proven in due time!

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Auger Hole, MN
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    433

    Default perhaps

    you misunderstood my post Sutton:

    I said

    "Unless you are doing paid pollination, the chances of losing your bees to a pesticide kill is about 10,000:1"

    and as others chimed in my estimate may be too low and I agree with Micheal Bush that 1000:1 may be a better estimate.

    So we probably agree that doing paid pollination you have a likely chance of pesticide kills. My point is the typical beesource user is a backyard or sideliner has an unlikely chance of loosing their bees to pesticides. But those smaller beeks read this Bayer and other info on pesticide kills and associate their own losses to that cause.

    as keepers of bees we all look for answers when our bees are dead, with the rampant use of apistan anc checkmite and difficulty in developing a low impact system of keeping bees its easy to point externally to blame other causes for our own mismanagement. Like others I have learned the hard way and had my share of massive losses. Then I got out of chasing the rainbow in pollination, stopped using treatments and went stationary. I am probably the largest stationary beek in my region although no one knows it as I keep a very low profile.

    I am not unique and feel I am part of a growing movement of beeks who have found ways to keep healthy bees without treatments and antibiotics and grow our own queens. (keep in mind most beeks don't post on these sites)

    the old system of using west coast or southern queens, using chem treatments, moving for pollination is broken and in its last dying gasp. all it would take is $10 diesel and the system would be done for good. the continual use of treatments is summed up in Maryann Fraziers recent work. the handwriting is on the wall folks with the larger operations. get out now and find a way to keep bees without the risk.

    for anyone chasing the almonds big losses are part of the equation. just shipping a load i have lost bees when they were delayed enroute and baked on the flatbed. its high risk poker with your bees out there, but those years you hit the big one and all loads are good and so one it pays for the bad years. its not easy since when you h ave the good years you come back home in April with jacked up colonies overflowing with mites and bees. most often we could never split them fast enough and treating in spring is never that effective. i got sick of the stress and got out to a more saner lifestyle.

    honestly since I stopped doing large scale paid pollination years ago I have never had a bee kill in my stationary locations and I am surrounded by Big Ag. My point is if you stay out of paid pollination your risk for ag chem kills are low. Someone posting here that says otherwise probably is shooting from the hip with no chem analysis of the dead. I hear the claims all of the time concerning "it must have been a pesticide kill" with no Ag dept data to back it up. Its not that hard to put some dead bees in a ziplok and call the ag dept. the services are free in most states and they are more then eager to look at the samples and help out.

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