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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durandal View Post
    Now we are claiming GM crops are responsible for CCD?

    ALL of my crops are GM be they Round-Up Ready or the organic seed I use for my market produce. GM crops have been big for hundreds of years.
    I am not claiming that GM crops are responsible for CCD. I am claiming we are destroying our planet with chems and GM crops. That includes destroying bees and ourselves in the process !

    About GM crops check some research of Dr.Hans-Heinrich Kaatz. Also gather some pollen and propolis and send it for testing. Let's see what they find propolis especially
    Sig

  2. #42
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    It was not only 6 months ago the world was caught in a short fall of food stores and casued many countries food prices to double and tripple. It caused starvation in many of the countries where people work to eat. The cause was purely a combination of weather disasters degrading and distorying our world crops.
    We are only talking 10-20% of the total crop being lost last year,

    If we are going to continue to talk about alternatives to chemicals then give the answers that WILL fill the void in crop production without chemical use.
    We can go back 80 years and adopt the old time practices of stripping and reaping, but as it showed back 80 years ago, it wasnt only unsustainable, but unproductive.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  3. #43
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    Default funny thing is

    Aside from speculation and non scientific news stories there does not exist a large body of published data that GMO or neonics are dangerous to people or honeybees. Maybe thats why these products are legal to use or consume ?

    [edit by mod] Anyone can put up a so called article on a blog or web page.

    Very few people have the credentials and knowledge to perform a scientific study using accepted protocols, write a report and submit it to a scientific journal. [edit by mod] Its all scary and threatening then after a while....
    Last edited by Barry; 12-18-2008 at 06:46 AM. Reason: personal attack

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Dingler View Post
    Aside from speculation and non scientific news stories there does not exist a large body of published data that GMO or neonics are dangerous to people or honeybees. Maybe thats why these products are legal to use or consume ?

    [edit by mod] Anyone can put up a so called article on a blog or web page.

    Very few people have the credentials and knowledge to perform a scientific study using accepted protocols, write a report and submit it to a scientific journal. [edit by mod] Its all scary and threatening then after a while....
    Well not all around the world GM and neonics are legal

    Anyway check the latest austrian study and research by Dr.Hans-Heinrich Kaatz. Some pretty disturbing stuff.

    The thing is that even scientific community cannot agree on this.

    30 years ago there were chemicals that were "perfectly safe". People like you walked around convincing others that there is no scientific evidence anything is wrong. In those years workers soon started to complain about their lungs and other health problems but everything was safe and good. Scientists didn't find anything...and today those people who worked with those chemicals are dying. BTW...those chems are illegal nowadays....

    So go and tell those people that new chems some guys came up with are perfectly safe for their children. It is not just a paper. It is experience with similar stuff that got some people thinking and suspicious.

    You can go on and dismiss everything that don't fit into your "scientific" thing. Not everything needs scientific proof. People can and do feel if something is wrong. And workers felt 30 years ago something is wrong. Out of 10 only 3 are alive today....

    Why do you insist on needing some papers, scientific studies ? There are professors that give interviews in media. Some say all is good and the others say it is dangerous. Even science is changing. Everyday!
    What was the "rule" 10 years ago is dismissed today and is considered bad. You know how many things changed in stomatology for example? Not ten years ago some things were preached at university and today the same professors preach the "new thing". They all forgot what they were talking about. Like people like you that preached and sprayed people in commercials 50 years ago were saying everything is safe. They are all silent now or demand scientific evidence for "new stuff". They forgot since there are no more those people that suffered living around them.
    You should touch some reality Bud and come down to earth.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-18-2008 at 06:47 AM.
    Sig

  5. #45
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    The nice thing about neonicotinoids or similar pesticides or "GM" (actually transgenic) crops as a scape goat for CCD is that it becomes "their" problem rather than "our" problem.

    What about the dangers of packing small areas with vast numbers of honey bee colonies? What about the stress on the bees from competing with other colonies in those situations? What about the stress from hauling bees all over the country? What about the lack of diversity in nectar and pollen sources that has been thrust on our bees because of agricultural practices in this country and, more importantly, the ways we handle our bees for pollination purposes?

  6. #46
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    The problem today is that we don't have Scientist we have studiers who are interpreting what people are observing. It took about 40 years for people to realize that "DDT" was dangerous and I don't know that Bayer is to blame but it seems to do what Bayer says in that insects get disoriented and lose their appetite. We need some good independent scientist to look into this not studiers

  7. #47
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    I agree with Kieck that "feedlot" beekeeping is the main reason behind CCD, the rest of the so called controversies are denial and a smoke screen.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Dingler View Post
    I agree with Kieck that "feedlot" beekeeping is the main reason behind CCD
    I'd like to see a quote by a researcher (authority) that states this please.
    Regards, Barry

  9. #49
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    Or maybe the feedlots are the means by which CCD is spread, not the cause???

  10. #50
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    To clarify, I did not specify that concentrated beekeeping is "the main cause of CCD," just that we (beekeepers) use practices that are probably more likely to cause problems than peripheral issues. It's just easier to blame someone else than to blame ourselves.

    As far as a research opinion on stress from concentrated beekeeping contributing to CCD, see:

    http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=15908

    Again, not saying that stresses from current methods of beekeeping are causing CCD, but bear in mind that testing the effects even of sub-lethal doses of neonicotinoids or chemicals from transgenic crops is very simple and quick compared to trying to sort out problems caused by some of these complex stresses.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    What about the lack of diversity in nectar and pollen sources
    Kieck, very well said, the whole post was right on target.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I'd like to see a quote by a researcher (authority) that states this please.
    That is a good question Barry, I use this feedlot keeping style and have had NO problems the last ten plus years. I do think however, if you bunch up hives you need to compensate your feeding program, and I don't mean with some square sugar patty that's called a pollen patty.

  13. #53
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    Big Grin

    Quote Originally Posted by beenovice View Post
    I am not claiming that GM crops are responsible for CCD. I am claiming we are destroying our planet with chems and GM crops. That includes destroying bees and ourselves in the process !
    SO Rather than replying I did take some time and research your request to give you the benefit of the doubt.

    Here is quote that sums up, in my opinion, Kaatz...

    "According to Hans-Hinrich Kaatz, a professor at the University of Halle in eastern Germany and the director of the study, the bacterial toxin in the genetically modified corn may have "altered the surface of the bee's intestines, sufficiently weakening the bees to allow the parasites to gain entry -- or perhaps it was the other way around. We don't know."

    Of course, the concentration of the toxin was ten times higher in the experiments than in normal Bt corn pollen. In addition, the bee feed was administered over a relatively lengthy six-week period.
    "

    He does not know if the GM crops were the cause of the problems or even if the the problems were somehow attributed to CCD. In the end there was no answer, just more questions and certainly nothing to attribute a negative in association with GM crops.

    Nor are all GM crops the same. I'll be the first to agree that GMO crops, especially the self terminating types should be tested extensively in a closed system to avoid possible environmental problems, but GM crops, like we grow, allow us to establish a crop where would have required a massive amount of chemicals, manual labor, or fuel use to attain a smaller crop. Now we are able to grow and yield a profit.

    You give me a market for a mix of Horseweeds and Johnson grass where I can simply mow, chop, and haul to a close destination and sell at the same market price as corn or beans then I stop farming the way we do this instance.
    Richard
    Carriage House Farm, North Bend, Ohio

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durandal View Post
    SO Rather than replying I did take some time and research your request to give you the benefit of the doubt.

    Here is quote that sums up, in my opinion, Kaatz...

    "According to Hans-Hinrich Kaatz, a professor at the University of Halle in eastern Germany and the director of the study, the bacterial toxin in the genetically modified corn may have "altered the surface of the bee's intestines, sufficiently weakening the bees to allow the parasites to gain entry -- or perhaps it was the other way around. We don't know."

    Of course, the concentration of the toxin was ten times higher in the experiments than in normal Bt corn pollen. In addition, the bee feed was administered over a relatively lengthy six-week period.
    "

    He does not know if the GM crops were the cause of the problems or even if the the problems were somehow attributed to CCD. In the end there was no answer, just more questions and certainly nothing to attribute a negative in association with GM crops.

    Nor are all GM crops the same. I'll be the first to agree that GMO crops, especially the self terminating types should be tested extensively in a closed system to avoid possible environmental problems, but GM crops, like we grow, allow us to establish a crop where would have required a massive amount of chemicals, manual labor, or fuel use to attain a smaller crop. Now we are able to grow and yield a profit.

    You give me a market for a mix of Horseweeds and Johnson grass where I can simply mow, chop, and haul to a close destination and sell at the same market price as corn or beans then I stop farming the way we do this instance.


    http://www.progress.org/archive/gene48.htm



    There are many unanswered questions about genetic engineering, which is a very young science. Nobody knows the long-term health and environmental impacts of these foods,� he adds. �At the very least, genetically manipulated foods need to be labeled so people can make up their own minds about whether they will consume them or not.�

    In the study, Professor Hans-Heinrich Kaatz of the University of Jena�s Bee Institute released bees onto a crop of genetically altered rape and later removed the pollen they gathered. He fed the pollen to young bees, and found that some of the bees had taken up modified genes in the bacteria in their digestive tract.

    The study reveals that novel genes from genetically engineered crops and food may cause changes to take place in the intestinal tracts of people and animals. If so, some scientists say, the role bacteria play in fighting disease, aiding digestion and other important health functions may be compromised.
    Like I said already and let me repeat again! Today some people are saying that everything is safe. People like them 50 years ago also said everything is safe. TODAY we know that then it was not safe.

    Durandal : you can put whatever you want into your land and onto your crops. I did not and never will.
    But please don't underestimate the EXPERIENCE of those 3 out of 10 that are still alive ! You know for those 7 everything was safe couple of decades ago scientists said....

    Oh and another thing. Please put ccd aside. Beekeepers are to blame as much as all the others. Think about long-term consequences using newly developed chemicals and GM that has not been tested as they should. Put a finger on your head and look at your childreen. And yes some of us do make food for ourselves and for sale without any chemicals. If it does not work for you that does not mean it does not work. It just means you cannot or don't want to do it....
    Sig

  15. #55
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    >>And yes some of us do make food for ourselves and for sale without any chemicals

    Supplying yourself and the world is two different stories
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    >>And yes some of us do make food for ourselves and for sale without any chemicals

    Supplying yourself and the world is two different stories

    Don't really understand where you are getting at with your response. Is it : "we will starve without pesticides" ? Give me a break. Food shortage without pesticides is a myth. I don't know about you but I see farmers utilizing organic methods on hectars producing same amount of food ( with added extra value ) as "regular" farmers.
    The problem with food "shortage" (or better food availability) lies elsewhere and not in use of pesticides or not. 10% of produced food in the world is lost due to storage and transport "mistakes". Yes some just don't know how to deal with food and yet we let them do it !

    Since you care about the World ! here you go .....

    I guess we will be selling those poor indians water along with nice shiny bag of RoundUp and in the second shipment ... here it goes a little Aspirin...( any cures for cancer yet ? ) Good for us huh....


    Like a star of exceptional talent pushed too hard, Punjab’s agricultural miracle is on the verge of collapse. The canals – “Punjab” means the land of five rivers – that channel water to dry fields, allowing water-thirsty rice to be grown where rainfall alone would never support it, are going dry. Where farmers have tube wells, they find it necessary to sink them deeper and deeper. Nitrites from synthetic fertilizers have polluted much of the groundwater. Over-irrigation increased salinity in the soil. Pesticides have permeated the soil, plant and animal life. Cancer rates have reached alarming proportions.
    http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=10766
    Sig

  17. #57
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    I farm beside an organic farmer, a good one, and a dedicated one.
    He manages his land to get a crop once every two years with the use of green manure for nutrients and summerfallow to control weeds. He will yeild about the same on his land in that crop year as I do on mine, he gets almost twice as much as I do for my produce, yet he is utilizing his land half as much. So in the end, he produces half as much as me, and profits about the same. If he were to switch to a annual cropping practice, there would be nothing to manage nutient replacement and nothing to manage weed control. So basically yeilding nothing on the land,

    >>Food shortage without pesticides is a myth

    do you wonder how south america can produce soo much off thier vast acres of land, how about Russia, how about China? These contries supply the world with all that surplus of grain we are sitting on, It isnt organic production I can tell you that.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  18. #58
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    OK guys....been in Fl with the bees....most look good..heavy maple bloom for last 10 daYS WITH LOTS POLLEN/NECTAR.. The ones who have gone downhill are the ones (1 yard) I missed treating and got high mite counts..the other one is the ones I kept in ky this summer with a 120yr drought.....although I fed should have used mega bee. NOTICE: I have not blamed Bayer!

    Kieck....you stated Research data of neonicotiod treatment ....no signficiant ....who did this testing???? Bayer You never heard of biased testing...BIG COMPANIES MISLEAD US ALL THE TIME! Just look at history!!!!! Alot of $$$ involved here!

    Tecumseh....You said what bothered you was at first there were two beekeepers then one.....go back and read it again!!!! I was talking about the beekeeper in Florida this year.....the other beekeeper I referred to was one who lost numerous colonies two years ago and did not loose them in Florida and HAD NOT TREATED HIS BEES WITH MITEICIDES nor had he had high mite counts. Maybe I didnt write it clear enough but I was referring to the second beekeeper because of his not using miteicides but the first beekeeper was the subject of my first post and I was referring to him in the second post!

    Bud Dingler.....If you think money doesnt affect research/gov agencies....you better check and see where your head is...it isnt on your shoulders! EPA is a bunch of goverment lazy burecrats who draw their salary and do very little at a snails pace. FDA is he same....when we tried to get them to sign off and creat a hopney standard they said they didnt have the time/personnel that there were alot of other more important things. A honey standard would have really helped stop funny honey ect and improved the price and quality of honey! By the way Florida has adopted it and all states need to jin the bandwagon!~ This will help the price of honey more than anything! Also when CCD first broke I had REAL GOOD INFORMATION that Bayer threatened to pull research $$$ If they got blamed.......who funds alot of (most) research at universities...not tax $$....but COMPANIES!! AN D YOU DONT THINK RESEARCH CAN BE BIASED????? BETTER CHECK WHERE THAT HEAD IS!!!! Dont want to make you mad...but using that to get my point across. BIG $$$ control our goverment and most of our research!

  19. #59
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    I have posted this advance notice a couple of times. An experiment was run in FL this past season where all of the hives were placed in a non - Ag area and had pollen traps installed.

    one third was fed a pollen sub

    one third was fed a pollen sub with typical levels of Imid found in Ag plants

    one third was fed a pollen sub with 10X or some huge factor over what a bee would find in Imid treated Ag crops.

    end result - do difference. this study is working its way through a peer review and will be released in 2009 and probably end up in ABJ.

    the funders of this study are....drum roll please - BEEKEEPERS!!!!!

    I come from an academic and R&D background. I'm sorry but while you only hear about the unethical instances of research that has been tainted by money the vast majority of research is not tainted. Most researchers like beekeepers and every day citizens are honest hard working trust worthy people.

    This idea that every researcher is in the backpocket of some big company is a fantasy just like the fantasy that all of a sudden some damming proof of GMO or Imid is hiding under a rock will surface and solve all of beekeeping problems.....hoooey.

    Feedlot beekeeping has evolved in the last 20 years. Some of the many negatives which came out of this are the selection of bees for non swarming and minimal propolis production. Both of these traits are found in the opposite as in high swarming and lots of propolis production in the Russian bee. Science is giving us hints that propolis needs to be present all over inside a hive to help bees maintain a healthy immune system. Frequent swarming is a wild behaviour trait. My point is feedlot beekeeping has damaged the bees natural defenses in a way that we do not fully understand yet. If you load and move semi loads of bees frequently like I used to do on an annual basis you share problems with the whole load. THen set them down in a massive holding yard in CA and share problems with even more bees. Look, in nature hives were one every 1/2 mile. Feedlot beekeeping has pushed bees beyond their natural abilities to defend themselves on top of the various new foreign pests etc. My theory is we don't need any research on CCD as we have the answers - they are just not the answers the feedlot bee industry and almonds want to hear.

    I learned the hard way and gave up feedlotting and the CA gold rush. I never move hives between my 275 stationary yards in a 3 state area to minimize transfer of problems. I don't lose any large numbers of bees either and don't use any meds treatments or pollen subs. The bottom line of my business improved greatly when I went stationary and stopped all of the treatments, HFCS feeding and all of that nonsense of so called modern beekeeping etc. The sheer cost of labor fuel and treatment, feed and med costs were unbelievable.

    VSH and russian bees are an integral part of my operation and I would not be able to run my operation with such minimal inputs without those lines.

  20. #60
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    Kieck....you stated Research data of neonicotiod treatment ....no signficiant ....who did this testing???? Bayer You never heard of biased testing...BIG COMPANIES MISLEAD US ALL THE TIME! Just look at history!!!!! Alot of $$$ involved here! -suttonbeeman
    No, I challenged you to read the literature on the symptoms or effects of neonicotinoid poisoning, and compare what you read in the scientific literature to what appears in CCD.

    Neonicotinoids are acetylcholine receptor agonists. Compare "overstimulation of neurons, poisoning and paralysis and resultant death" to "workers simply disappear, leaving only a queen and a few bees; stores of honey and pollen appear to remain untouched by robbers after a colony collapses from CCD."

    How do you make the connection?

    Spell it out for me, if you would please: what data do you have to support the claim that neonicotinoid poisoning causes CCD?

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