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ccd - corn - pesticides

24K views 113 replies 24 participants last post by  beemandan 
#1 ·
Just to clear the air once again, 'cause the smoke screenings getting old.

CCD came along after the neonics came into widespread use for the treatment of seeds and the spraying of crops and residential areas. CCD symptoms mirror the description of how these chems work. Neonics have been found in 100% of CCD affected colonies.

CCD also coincides with the massive increase in corn plantings (in response to the ethanol craze). Corn seed is almost universally treated with neonics and the growing plants are sprayed with neonics.

Now... I am aware that lots of chemicals have been found in bees and comb besides the neonics. I am also aware that there have been big bee die-offs in the past. Nonetheless... I'm done calling it "CCD". Everybody's hiding behind the buzzwords. From now on I'll just call a duck a duck and cat a cat and CCD what it is, neonicitinoid pesticide poisoning.

Much Love.

Sylus p
 
#4 ·
Neonics Refuted

I operate in Wisco, MN and northern IA in a sea of corn. The initial post is way off base since the corn belt which also includes, MO, NE, IN and IL have the lowest to zero reports of CCD.

There is also one other notable problem with the posters hypothesis and that is except in extreme situations of drought honeybees do not ever get nectar from corn and only in rare circumstances pollen.

I was involved in a University study in 2003 where they ID'd the flower sources of pollen from 100 of my pollen traps over a 150 mile area. Corn never turned up during the corn tasseling season.

and

Finally Maryam Fraziers work

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4115244451959719523

also in ABJ article during summer of 2008.

is the only substantial recent analysis of chemicals in brood comb from the original CDD losses. The Neonics only showed up in a few samples and in extremely low doses, low enough to not even be considered as a possible cause. What did show up in every sample was chemicals beekeepers applied for mites. The number 1,2 and 3 chems by a factor of 1000 were miticides.

So no I'm sorry this idea that Imid on corn is the source of CCD just does not wash with the evidence.

These kind of rumors are damaging to the industry as beekeepers have a scape goat for their own comb contamination and mite treatment practices. A recent forum has been convened between Bayer the maker of the Neonics and some western beekeeper associations to share data and each get to the facts sop we can put an end to this misinformation band wagon.

Also a FL study to be released soon where a number of hives were moved to an isolated area away from agriculture and one third of the hives fed a pollen sub laced with a dose of Imid typically encountered by bees in canola, pumpkins or other crops bees might actually visit (not corn!) another third were fed a really high dose way above what they would see in crops. the final third were fed only pollen subs. all hives in the 3 groups had pollen traps fitted so they all relied on the pollen subs fed in the hives.

The preliminary data suggests = no effects between the three groups. So if you want to talk smoke screen the smoke screen is the commercial beeks that out of one hand bash Bayer and with the other hand contaminate their bees with miticides. They use the Imid non-debate as a smoke screen to cover up their own ills.

It would bee called progress if beekeepers were to get beyond this Bayer misinformation and move on and solve the real problem thats not a question and that is the brood comb contamination.
 
#5 ·
But it is you who refuses to accept the facts. France and Germany have banned the use of clothianidin one of the neonicitinoid pesticides because of its impact on bees. Here is an excellent article regarding this issue.

http://beestreesfrogselephants.blogspot.com/2008/10/ccd-link-to-neonicitinoids-deepens.html

Lastly your cheap shot against commercial beeks was uncalled for. We take great pride in maintaining healthy bees and the practices utilized by them for treatments of mites and other problems for years would not "suddenly" start killing off the bees. Additionally, as a commercial beek that does not utilize chemicals in my hives I resent the fact that you "assume" that all use chemicals in their hives. I know many that do not and the trend seems to be moving to more natural substances to maintain the health of the bees. (essential oils and supplemental feeding)
 
#6 ·
Here are some additional links to articles regarding this issue.

http://www.vanishingbees.com/blog/?p=245

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/aug2008/2008-08-25-01.asp

"In the United States, the nonprofit Natural Resources Defense Council filed a lawsuit August 15 in federal court in Washington, DC to force the federal government to disclose studies it ordered on the effect of clothianidin on honey bees.

Studies on clothianidin were ordered by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency from Bayer CropScience in 2003 when the EPA granted the company a registration for the chemical.

NRDC attorneys believe that the EPA has evidence of connections between pesticides and the mysterious honey bee die-offs reported across the country called colony collapse disorder that it has not made public. "
 
#8 ·
#9 ·
sylus writes:
CCD came along after the neonics came into widespread use for the treatment of seeds and the spraying of crops and residential areas. CCD symptoms mirror the description of how these chems work. Neonics have been found in 100% of CCD affected colonies.

tecumseh:
hummm.... well my casual reading of some fairly old bee magazines suggest that something that looked quite a bit like CCD was first reported in 1935 and then again in 1965. of course they didn't call it ccd in those days... the name seems to have changed but the general symptoms have not. are you suggesting that neonicatines existed prior to 1935... or ever 1965?

the '60s outbreak was quite interesting in that they inverview state bee inspectors... plus reported some observation Mraz made while in mexico. at least one symptom (partial cause perhaps) reported in one of those old bee magazines was... an unseasonal drop in termperature and high humidity (sometime accompanied by rain or snow).
 
#10 ·
Just another note....a beekeeper in Florida who happens top be a bee inspector lost 250 colonies while pollinating this summer.....250 colonies not in pollination are fine.....no differance in mite treatment....just a considence????I think not!@ Leaky irrigation pipe with insecticides an dbees gathering water equals a higher dose of nict. say what you want but looka at common sence.....look how nic insecticides kill thenm look at ccd? see anything ? doesnt prove it but **** sure look suspicious!! Also I know one beekeeper WHO HAS NOT USED fluvinate or other chemicals for a number of years (has been using wintergreen, tea tree oil and thymol)....lost 1/2 of his bees to ccd two yrs ago....and all comb was not OLD!!! most comb was less than 5 yrs old. So quit blaming commercial beeks....there are alot of possiable causes but neon nic insecticides have to be at the top of the list!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!!
 
#11 ·
suttonbeeman writes:
@ Leaky irrigation pipe with insecticides an dbees gathering water equals a higher dose of nict. say what you want but looka at common sence.....look how nic insecticides kill thenm look at ccd? see anything ? doesnt prove it but **** sure look suspicious!!

tecumseh:
curious. I wonder what the beekeeper/inspector was pollinating? depending on the type of crop and what area in florida this incident might represent any number of likely suspects. in the two cases you mentioned suttonbeeman what might they have had in common? did the two beekeepers have any suspects of their own beside neonicotine? do both OVERWINTER in florida?
 
#13 ·
It was one beekeeper....1/2 bees on pollination 1/2 not on pollination. The 250 not on pollination were treated the same as the ones on pollination....cucumbers. Bees are in Fl year around. Beekeeper is NOT migratory..just moves in Fl to flows/pollination. Numerous other beekeepers in Fl have had same experience. If you dont think insecticides have anything to do with CCD(NOTE: I"M NOT TALKING ABOUT MITEICIDES) you need to get your head from where the sun dont shine!
 
#14 ·
I recommend anyone making claims about the similarities of symptoms appearing in colonies and symptoms caused by neonicotinoid poisoning read the literature on what the actual observed symptoms in neonicotinoid poisonings have been.

If you still believe the two are similar, try exposing a hundred or so of your bees in confinement to trace amounts of neonicotinoids.

Also, keep in mind that neonicotinoids have been in heavy use in the U. S. at least since the mid to late 1990s. Where was CCD in 2001? Or 2002? And why isn't it most common in areas with the greatest use of neonicotinoids and the greatest corn growing areas? Based on the accusations in this thread, no honey bees should be able to survive in Illinois, Iowa, Indiana, Ohio, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri, or eastern South Dakota.

Florida, in comparison, grows very little corn, and uses very little neonicotinoids.

And, suttonbeeman, why would you exclude miticides from your accusation? Miticides are also generally insecticides, they're deliberately used in bee hives, bees are definitely in contact with them, and bees are exposed to much greater concentrations of them than to most other insecticides.
 
#15 ·
kieck writes:
Florida, in comparison, grows very little corn, and uses very little neonicotinoids.

tecumseh:
first off kiech I pretty muc agree with your view. however..... they may grow very little corn (except a bit here and there in north florida) but they do grow a great deal of a vast variety of other stuff all over florida. one need only work a short while in some of the truck patches of central and south floria to come to the conclusion that those folks may well be relieving themselves on someone else's dinner plate (and thats been going on for quite some time). during my last little venture to florida (just prior to the first reported outbreak of ccd) I noted to my wife that all the springs in central florida suggested (by direct observation) that they were overburdened with human contamination. what had been crystal clear spring that pumped out millions of gallon of clear cool water per hour when I was young, now look somewhat like the outflow of a waste treatment plant.

what bothers me most about suttonbeeman's post is first he suggest there were two beekeepers with almost the same experience and then later he states there was one. he also seems a bit guarded in revealing where the supposed loss occurred.

there are areas in florida that have been in intensive agriculture production for quite some time, so the possible 'contaminant' could be almost anything produced in the past 50 years.
 
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
What I see happening a lot is you get one report of a bee kill on pesticides and the [edit by mod] who posts this makes an implication or accusation that see this XYZ pesticide is causing all of the current bee related problems.

The German incident this spring comes to mind of [edit by mod] kind of reporting.

Since the 1960's we have had isolated bee kills due to missapplication of pesticides or just plain bad luck. There is no reason to believe that this will not continue into the future. To date we do not have any data that suggests that a widespread problem exists with any particular pesticide that is wiping out hives on a widespread basis.

We do have data that says most brood comb is heavily contaminated and that the levels are reaching LD50 in some cases. Furthermore we have published data that shows the damaging effects of these miticides on the reproductive abilities of queens and drones.
 
#17 ·
I'm with you, tecumseh. I'm not claiming that Florida is pristine, or that no pesticides are used in Florida. Pesticides certainly are. And some forms of pesticides are no doubt more heavily used in Florida than in other parts of the country.

But neonicotinoids are more heavily used in this part of the country than in Florida. And, from research data, neonicotinoid seed treatments have no significant effect on target insects just a few weeks after application.
 
#18 ·
The USDA and the EPA get most of their funding from the major chemical corporations. These organizations are also staffed at the highest levels by folks who have made their money and their names selling chemicals and selling the idea that massive monoculture pesticide dependent plantings are the inevitable wave of the future.

These are political and corporate organizations, not regulatory and safegaurding institutions.

"The Department of Agriculture has set up a working group of scientists from six universities, the Department of Defense, and the Environmental Protection Agency." Steve Croft, 60 minutes special on ccd

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRBJf57aNp4

Now, if ccd is in fact pesticide poisoning (and it sure looks that way) and those pesticides were fradulantly approved by the EPA holding hands with the USDA while the agrichem companies were shoving greenbacks in their trousers, AND the EPA and the USDA are the ones, "leading the investigation", what do you think the chances are that you're going to get the facts man???

Pretty slim my friends. Pretty darn slim.
 
#20 ·
The USDA and the EPA get most of their funding from the major chemical corporations. These organizations are also staffed at the highest levels by folks who have made their money and their names selling chemicals and selling the idea that massive monoculture pesticide dependent plantings are the inevitable wave of the future.
hrmmm, watch the video that bud dingler pointed to. the nhb funded this study of chemical residues in wax, trapped pollen, stored pollen, adult bees, brood...and found the highest levels of anything (and the most commonly found) to be beekeeper applied chemicals. watch closely....this study was funded by the nhb, and did not include funding for looking at what is in the honey. also note that the only place imidacloprid was found consistantly was in orange groves that were using it to fight citris greening.

Now, if ccd is in fact pesticide poisoning (and it sure looks that way)
well, there are pesticides applied by farmer/homeowner, and there are pesticides applied by beekeepers.

and those pesticides were fradulantly approved by the EPA holding hands with the USDA while the agrichem companies were shoving greenbacks in their trousers, AND the EPA and the USDA are the ones, "leading the investigation", what do you think the chances are that you're going to get the facts man???
and given that we have facts and data, it is the beekeepers who are 'holding hands' with the pesticide industry...in order to keep them available for use in the beehive....all the while, enjoying the "reputation" of honey as being the "last pure food" despite what some (most) put in their honey production colonies. pretty sad.

deknow
 
#21 ·
Neonics have been found in 100% of CCD affected colonies.
this is so well documented not to be true, that it makes this whole thread irrelevant.

this isn't a matter of "my documentation vs your documentation", this is pure falsehood. even if you believe neonics are the cause of ccd, making up data (or reporting on made up data) is inexcusable.

deknow
 
#22 · (Edited)
Sylus said,
>>>>what do you think the chances are that you're going to get the facts <<<<

Listen to folks like Kieck. nicotioids have been in heavy use for nearly 20 years. This is a cotton-picking fact! Pay attention to this fact! I read about bees for hours each day and I don't see anyone with a solution. The best we can do is control mites, nutrition and keep a breed of bees that shows resistance. Clean comb seems to be important.

See "Die-off" in Point of View on this site. I wrote it in '07 after being on-site with the first CCD episodes. No-one knew then and no-one knows now. If I were to update it, I couldn't find much to add. Bees die. If you want to stay with the data, bees in big groups die. That's a fact, by the way. That's all we really know. I'm still wondering if it's not some sort of survival mechanism that lets the weak drop out and the strong survive. Sort of like the robbing instinct that concentrates the stores of an area in the stronger colonies.

Is that clear? If too many of a given species overcome the available resources, some mechanism to keep this species from damaging the resource, kicks in.

The last thing a fish would discover is water,

Dickm
 
#24 ·
I do not believe that all of the samples that have been PROVIDED to the researchers in fact contain neo-nics. However, all of the samples from colonies suffering from actual ccd symptoms (few adult bees, colonies unrobbed, capped brood) have suffered acute pesticide poisoning.

The provided samples have included colonies that are simply unhealthy as well as some colonies that are probably in perfect health.

Even one corrupt sample taker would easily skew the results by including samples of perfectly healthy colonies, let alone two or three corrupt officials, or more. In addition there will be beekeepers who will include samples of bees that have dies from the typical bee diseases and pests.

Factor in the enormous profits made by the pesticide biz (read billions of dollars) AND the past complicity of the corrupt EPA/USDA complex in approving chems not properly tested AND the fact that the samples and research are being collected and conducted by the USDA/EPA and you can see that the research data you may hold in high esteem as unbiased evidence is questionable at best.

Therefore I repeat the claim the 100% of colonies actually effected by "ccd" have been poisoned by pesticides, namely neonics. This claim is backed up by the anectdotal evidence of so many beeks its ridiculous.

These folks, in the trenches, already know the causes and consequences of exposure to these chems. But I guess the scientists and researchers operating under the USDA and EPA led conglomerate know better then they do whats killing their bees. And they keep saying, "Shut up, you don't know what you're talking about, and no, we don't have the answers either. But shut up anyways."

"So when you run be sure you run,
to something and not away from,
because nothing happens here that doesn't happen there."
 
#25 ·
I do not believe that all of the samples that have been PROVIDED to the researchers in fact contain neo-nics. However, all of the samples from colonies suffering from actual ccd symptoms (few adult bees, colonies unrobbed, capped brood) have suffered acute pesticide poisoning.

The provided samples have included colonies that are simply unhealthy as well as some colonies that are probably in perfect health.

Even one corrupt sample taker would easily skew the results by including samples of perfectly healthy colonies, let alone two or three corrupt officials, or more. In addition there will be beekeepers who will include samples of bees that have died from the typical bee diseases and pests.

Factor in the enormous profits made by the pesticide biz (read billions of dollars) AND the past complicity of the corrupt EPA/USDA complex in approving chems not properly tested AND the fact that the samples and research are being collected and conducted by the USDA/EPA and you can see that the research data you may hold in high esteem as unbiased evidence is questionable at best.

Therefore I repeat that 100% of "ccd" affected colonies have been poisoned by pesticides, namely neonics. This claim is backed up by the anectdotal evidence of so many beeks its ridiculous.

These folks, in the trenches, already know the causes and consequences of exposure to these chems, namely "ccd". But I guess the scientists and researchers operating under the USDA and EPA led conglomerate know better then they do whats killing their bees. And they keep saying, "Shut up, you don't know what you're talking about, and no, we don't have the answers either. But shut up anyways. You don't know what you're talking about."

How insulting this has been.

"So when you run be sure you run,
to something and not away from
because nothing happens here that doesn't happen there."
 
#27 ·
Perhaps Sylus finds his/her so called "data" on this web site

www.rense.com

the posters insistence that the EPA and USDA are all corrupt and on the payroll of Bayer and the agrochem giants reeks of paranoia.

in my former career I worked in R&D for a Fortune 500 company on an electric car battery project and we had a lot of contact with the DOE. All I can tell you is if you value your comfortable life with snazzy computer, IPOD, new car and fridge filled with food you owe your lifestyle to a scientist somewhere.

scientists and government employees at DOE, EPA and USDA are just normal people who are usually very smart and have excelled in their careers.

this notion that the whole complex is corrupt and there is a conspiracy afoot to decimate honeybees is just plain ridiculous and uninformed.

sure we have ABF and several visible beekeepers railing about Bayer and the neonics. We also have people who believe in UFO's and bigfoot too. WHat Sylus and the rest of us are seeing is massive, massive denial from ABF and other large commercial outfits who claim Bayer is the boogie man while meanwhile back home at the ranch they mix up their own concoction of chemicals in which they contaminate their brood combs and poison their own bees. This is not paranoia this is documented fact. Not all commercial beekeepers still use shop rags and home brews and rail about Bayer just the less informed.
 
#28 ·
I didn't say anything about ufo's!

What I actually said is that a few bad apples spoil the bunch.

Also I didn't say that it was a conspiracy to decimate the honeybees. I said that this was linked to corruption past and present in the form of major payoffs that people in high places are now covering up. This is an old old story, and a very human one.

If CCD were the result of the commercial beeks overuse/abuse of pesticides, it would not have emerged "all at once" as it did, in 2006.

Most commercial guys are feeling a little silly and sheepish and under the scope about this revelation and are taking steps to treat their bees differently. These guys are our bread and butter, literally, and they know it.

Clothianidin in particular was approved for use in only 2003. Not that long ago. Factor in the timetable for mass production and mass distribution and this particularly nasty and reactive (ie volitile and binding) chem fits the bill for a 2006 emergence of "ccd".

Its not about ufos and I would never claim that every single EPA/USDA official is corrupt. A FEW bad apples spoil the whole darn peck Bud. At the very least you must admit this is a possibility. Otherwise, how do we safegaurd ourselves from it?

Oh and finally, and along the lines of keeping all possiblities on the table, there are wack-jobs in high places that wouldn't mind seeing the bees die and the resulting food shortages, there are people like that bud. It would make us all a heck of a lot easier to control, and for some folks, not all, but some, thats what its all about, controlling people.

Let us all pray that that is not what we are seeing, and God help us if it is.
 
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