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  1. #1
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    Mar 2008
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    Default ccd - corn - pesticides

    Just to clear the air once again, 'cause the smoke screenings getting old.

    CCD came along after the neonics came into widespread use for the treatment of seeds and the spraying of crops and residential areas. CCD symptoms mirror the description of how these chems work. Neonics have been found in 100% of CCD affected colonies.

    CCD also coincides with the massive increase in corn plantings (in response to the ethanol craze). Corn seed is almost universally treated with neonics and the growing plants are sprayed with neonics.

    Now... I am aware that lots of chemicals have been found in bees and comb besides the neonics. I am also aware that there have been big bee die-offs in the past. Nonetheless... I'm done calling it "CCD". Everybody's hiding behind the buzzwords. From now on I'll just call a duck a duck and cat a cat and CCD what it is, neonicitinoid pesticide poisoning.

    Much Love.

    Sylus p

  2. #2
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    Default

    nuff said......AMEN!

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by sylus p View Post
    Neonics have been found in 100% of CCD affected colonies.
    Where did you get this data?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  4. #4
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    Feb 2008
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    Auger Hole, MN
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    Default Neonics Refuted

    I operate in Wisco, MN and northern IA in a sea of corn. The initial post is way off base since the corn belt which also includes, MO, NE, IN and IL have the lowest to zero reports of CCD.

    There is also one other notable problem with the posters hypothesis and that is except in extreme situations of drought honeybees do not ever get nectar from corn and only in rare circumstances pollen.

    I was involved in a University study in 2003 where they ID'd the flower sources of pollen from 100 of my pollen traps over a 150 mile area. Corn never turned up during the corn tasseling season.

    and

    Finally Maryam Fraziers work

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...44451959719523

    also in ABJ article during summer of 2008.

    is the only substantial recent analysis of chemicals in brood comb from the original CDD losses. The Neonics only showed up in a few samples and in extremely low doses, low enough to not even be considered as a possible cause. What did show up in every sample was chemicals beekeepers applied for mites. The number 1,2 and 3 chems by a factor of 1000 were miticides.

    So no I'm sorry this idea that Imid on corn is the source of CCD just does not wash with the evidence.

    These kind of rumors are damaging to the industry as beekeepers have a scape goat for their own comb contamination and mite treatment practices. A recent forum has been convened between Bayer the maker of the Neonics and some western beekeeper associations to share data and each get to the facts sop we can put an end to this misinformation band wagon.

    Also a FL study to be released soon where a number of hives were moved to an isolated area away from agriculture and one third of the hives fed a pollen sub laced with a dose of Imid typically encountered by bees in canola, pumpkins or other crops bees might actually visit (not corn!) another third were fed a really high dose way above what they would see in crops. the final third were fed only pollen subs. all hives in the 3 groups had pollen traps fitted so they all relied on the pollen subs fed in the hives.

    The preliminary data suggests = no effects between the three groups. So if you want to talk smoke screen the smoke screen is the commercial beeks that out of one hand bash Bayer and with the other hand contaminate their bees with miticides. They use the Imid non-debate as a smoke screen to cover up their own ills.

    It would bee called progress if beekeepers were to get beyond this Bayer misinformation and move on and solve the real problem thats not a question and that is the brood comb contamination.

  5. #5
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    May 2008
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    Default

    But it is you who refuses to accept the facts. France and Germany have banned the use of clothianidin one of the neonicitinoid pesticides because of its impact on bees. Here is an excellent article regarding this issue.

    http://beestreesfrogselephants.blogs...s-deepens.html

    Lastly your cheap shot against commercial beeks was uncalled for. We take great pride in maintaining healthy bees and the practices utilized by them for treatments of mites and other problems for years would not "suddenly" start killing off the bees. Additionally, as a commercial beek that does not utilize chemicals in my hives I resent the fact that you "assume" that all use chemicals in their hives. I know many that do not and the trend seems to be moving to more natural substances to maintain the health of the bees. (essential oils and supplemental feeding)
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. John Wayne

  6. #6
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    Default

    Here are some additional links to articles regarding this issue.

    http://www.vanishingbees.com/blog/?p=245

    http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/aug2...8-08-25-01.asp

    "In the United States, the nonprofit Natural Resources Defense Council filed a lawsuit August 15 in federal court in Washington, DC to force the federal government to disclose studies it ordered on the effect of clothianidin on honey bees.

    Studies on clothianidin were ordered by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency from Bayer CropScience in 2003 when the EPA granted the company a registration for the chemical.

    NRDC attorneys believe that the EPA has evidence of connections between pesticides and the mysterious honey bee die-offs reported across the country called colony collapse disorder that it has not made public. "
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. John Wayne

  7. #7
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    Default

    And here is a recent study (Oct 08) done at the University of Florida that shows that Imidacloprid does have serious effects on young bees.

    http://www.palmbeachpost.com/busines...arch_1022.html

    "Tiny doses of pesticides can kill baby bees.

    That's what research just completed at the University of Florida found when honey bee larvae were fed a diet laced with miniscule amounts of a nicotine-based pesticide."
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. John Wayne

  8. #8
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    Dec 2006
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    Amador County, Calif
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Dingler View Post
    So no I'm sorry this idea that Imid on corn is the source of CCD just does not wash with the evidence.
    .
    well said, Bud

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sylus p View Post
    Neonics have been found in 100% of CCD affected colonies.
    I must have missed the answer to my original question. Where did you get this data?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2002
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    Danbury,Ct. USA
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    Default

    Sylus said,
    >>>>what do you think the chances are that you're going to get the facts <<<<

    Listen to folks like Kieck. nicotioids have been in heavy use for nearly 20 years. This is a cotton-picking fact! Pay attention to this fact! I read about bees for hours each day and I don't see anyone with a solution. The best we can do is control mites, nutrition and keep a breed of bees that shows resistance. Clean comb seems to be important.

    See "Die-off" in Point of View on this site. I wrote it in '07 after being on-site with the first CCD episodes. No-one knew then and no-one knows now. If I were to update it, I couldn't find much to add. Bees die. If you want to stay with the data, bees in big groups die. That's a fact, by the way. That's all we really know. I'm still wondering if it's not some sort of survival mechanism that lets the weak drop out and the strong survive. Sort of like the robbing instinct that concentrates the stores of an area in the stronger colonies.

    Is that clear? If too many of a given species overcome the available resources, some mechanism to keep this species from damaging the resource, kicks in.

    The last thing a fish would discover is water,

    Dickm
    Last edited by dickm; 12-14-2008 at 08:07 PM.

  11. #11
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sylus p View Post
    Neonics have been found in 100% of CCD affected colonies.
    this is so well documented not to be true, that it makes this whole thread irrelevant.

    this isn't a matter of "my documentation vs your documentation", this is pure falsehood. even if you believe neonics are the cause of ccd, making up data (or reporting on made up data) is inexcusable.

    deknow

  12. #12
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    Mar 2008
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    Rush, NY, USA
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    Default

    These are systemic pesticides right? We can agree on that?

    So when you sell your crop you're selling poisoned produce.
    You're essentially poisoning vast numbers of people. Kids and infants included.

    Maybe you'll cite some study somewhere that says these things don't hurt humans.

    Well then, go drink a pint of Gaucho or go spray your kids with Premiere. These are poisons, taken up by the whole plant, persistent in the soil, poisonous to man and beast alike.

    The focus on economic systems destroys ecological systems. This is not an acceptable trade-off.

  13. #13
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    Feb 2006
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    UP michigan
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    Default

    [QUOTE=sylus p;378832]These are systemic pesticides right? We can agree on that?

    So when you sell your crop you're selling poisoned produce.
    You're essentially poisoning vast numbers of people. Kids and infants included.

    You won't be able to eat anything if that's your standard.

    Camp
    As wonderful as this life is, there are days I really look forward to the next. :)

  14. #14
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    Mar 2008
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    Default

    Camp writes: "You won't be able to eat anything if that's your standard."



    Pesticide dependence is your problem, not mine.

    I am a first class cultivator of the earth my friend. Pesticide free. Your statement is absurd. There's lots to eat, your just not the one growing it.

  15. #15
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    Default

    Pesticide dependence is your problem, not mine.

    I am a first class cultivator of the earth my friend. Pesticide free. Your statement is absurd. There's lots to eat, your just not the one growing it.[/QUOTE]

    How do you keep all that pesticide laden rain from hitting your crops?

    Camp
    As wonderful as this life is, there are days I really look forward to the next. :)

  16. #16
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    Dec 2005
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    Volga, SD
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    Default

    The argument posed in this thread is that neonicotinoids "cause" CCD, not whether or not pesticides are good or bad. That, to me, belongs in Tailgater.

    So far, nothing has demonstrated that neonicotinoids cause CCD. And neonicotinoids seem dangerous because insects cannot detect them, which flies in the face of the symptom that CCD hives do not get robbed out for weeks after they fail.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camp9 View Post

    How do you keep all that pesticide laden rain from hitting your crops?

    Camp
    Good point. But a better question would be, "How do you justifiy your behavior when you poison the rain itself?"

  18. #18
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    Apr 2005
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    College Station, Texas
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    bud writes:
    Unless you are doing paid pollination, the chances of losing your bees to a pesticide kill is about 10,000:1

    tecumseh:
    humm... I don't know where you derived this number but it does sound a bit like it was snatched out of the air.

    I would suspect (reflecting on past experience) that pesticide loss does to some degree depend on location and the general density (human or agriculture activity) of an area.

    suttonbeeman writes:
    I have however quit putting bees in south Florida where my losses were. There are alot of crops growing there and also alot of insecticide use due to citrus greening. I am in north Florida in a area with NO crops

    tecumseh:
    having spend a good deal of time in florida (a long long time ago) I am curious (cats being curious beast) where (general location beyond some non descriptive north/south designation) exactly this loss occurred.

    and just as a point of information much of the south end of florida is a bit like a huge expansive waste treatment plant and the waste component in the water does not necessarily have to originate anywhere near florida since the water that permeates much of the area may have an origin a thousand miles away.

  19. #19
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    The mode of action of neonicotinoids is similar to the natural insecticide nicotine, which acts on the central nervous system. In insects, neonicatinoids cause paralysis which leads to death, often within a few hours.

    Bees are insects right ? -beenovice
    Right. So why would symptoms appear in bees (one type of insect) weeks or even months after exposure to neonicotinoids, but appear in other types of insects very shortly after exposure (hours to days)?

    Has anyone else (besides myself) observed bee hives that are experiencing poisoning from neonicotinoid exposure?

  20. #20
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    Right. So why would symptoms appear in bees (one type of insect) weeks or even months after exposure to neonicotinoids, but appear in other types of insects very shortly after exposure (hours to days)?

    Has anyone else (besides myself) observed bee hives that are experiencing poisoning from neonicotinoid exposure?
    Bees poisoned by nenocotinoids quickly die. You can see pile of bees in front of the hives. It happened this year all over Europe. A lot of us saw it in real time !

    Let's not fool ourselves anymore. CCD, what not....it just does not matter.
    The fact is we are poisoning ourselves with huge amount of pesticides ( including ones we put into our hives ! ). Higher rates of cancers are visible in rural areas these days. Water is more polluted in the areas where few people live but pesticides are in use than in cities ( it seems impossible but that is the way it is ).

    There is a lot written by some pretty credible people how pesticides damage insects immune systems even in long run and not just immediate kill. Even Bayer itself claims some pesticides are dangerous to bees by only visiting a plant and by gathering nectar and pollen on these plants. While it does not kill adult bees it is dangerous and damages larvae ! So at the end we have pretty "damaged" adult bees.
    Sig

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