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  1. #1
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    Default ccd - corn - pesticides

    Just to clear the air once again, 'cause the smoke screenings getting old.

    CCD came along after the neonics came into widespread use for the treatment of seeds and the spraying of crops and residential areas. CCD symptoms mirror the description of how these chems work. Neonics have been found in 100% of CCD affected colonies.

    CCD also coincides with the massive increase in corn plantings (in response to the ethanol craze). Corn seed is almost universally treated with neonics and the growing plants are sprayed with neonics.

    Now... I am aware that lots of chemicals have been found in bees and comb besides the neonics. I am also aware that there have been big bee die-offs in the past. Nonetheless... I'm done calling it "CCD". Everybody's hiding behind the buzzwords. From now on I'll just call a duck a duck and cat a cat and CCD what it is, neonicitinoid pesticide poisoning.

    Much Love.

    Sylus p

  2. #2
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    Default

    nuff said......AMEN!

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by sylus p View Post
    Neonics have been found in 100% of CCD affected colonies.
    Where did you get this data?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  4. #4
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    Default Neonics Refuted

    I operate in Wisco, MN and northern IA in a sea of corn. The initial post is way off base since the corn belt which also includes, MO, NE, IN and IL have the lowest to zero reports of CCD.

    There is also one other notable problem with the posters hypothesis and that is except in extreme situations of drought honeybees do not ever get nectar from corn and only in rare circumstances pollen.

    I was involved in a University study in 2003 where they ID'd the flower sources of pollen from 100 of my pollen traps over a 150 mile area. Corn never turned up during the corn tasseling season.

    and

    Finally Maryam Fraziers work

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...44451959719523

    also in ABJ article during summer of 2008.

    is the only substantial recent analysis of chemicals in brood comb from the original CDD losses. The Neonics only showed up in a few samples and in extremely low doses, low enough to not even be considered as a possible cause. What did show up in every sample was chemicals beekeepers applied for mites. The number 1,2 and 3 chems by a factor of 1000 were miticides.

    So no I'm sorry this idea that Imid on corn is the source of CCD just does not wash with the evidence.

    These kind of rumors are damaging to the industry as beekeepers have a scape goat for their own comb contamination and mite treatment practices. A recent forum has been convened between Bayer the maker of the Neonics and some western beekeeper associations to share data and each get to the facts sop we can put an end to this misinformation band wagon.

    Also a FL study to be released soon where a number of hives were moved to an isolated area away from agriculture and one third of the hives fed a pollen sub laced with a dose of Imid typically encountered by bees in canola, pumpkins or other crops bees might actually visit (not corn!) another third were fed a really high dose way above what they would see in crops. the final third were fed only pollen subs. all hives in the 3 groups had pollen traps fitted so they all relied on the pollen subs fed in the hives.

    The preliminary data suggests = no effects between the three groups. So if you want to talk smoke screen the smoke screen is the commercial beeks that out of one hand bash Bayer and with the other hand contaminate their bees with miticides. They use the Imid non-debate as a smoke screen to cover up their own ills.

    It would bee called progress if beekeepers were to get beyond this Bayer misinformation and move on and solve the real problem thats not a question and that is the brood comb contamination.

  5. #5
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    Default

    But it is you who refuses to accept the facts. France and Germany have banned the use of clothianidin one of the neonicitinoid pesticides because of its impact on bees. Here is an excellent article regarding this issue.

    http://beestreesfrogselephants.blogs...s-deepens.html

    Lastly your cheap shot against commercial beeks was uncalled for. We take great pride in maintaining healthy bees and the practices utilized by them for treatments of mites and other problems for years would not "suddenly" start killing off the bees. Additionally, as a commercial beek that does not utilize chemicals in my hives I resent the fact that you "assume" that all use chemicals in their hives. I know many that do not and the trend seems to be moving to more natural substances to maintain the health of the bees. (essential oils and supplemental feeding)
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. John Wayne

  6. #6
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    May 2008
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    Default

    Here are some additional links to articles regarding this issue.

    http://www.vanishingbees.com/blog/?p=245

    http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/aug2...8-08-25-01.asp

    "In the United States, the nonprofit Natural Resources Defense Council filed a lawsuit August 15 in federal court in Washington, DC to force the federal government to disclose studies it ordered on the effect of clothianidin on honey bees.

    Studies on clothianidin were ordered by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency from Bayer CropScience in 2003 when the EPA granted the company a registration for the chemical.

    NRDC attorneys believe that the EPA has evidence of connections between pesticides and the mysterious honey bee die-offs reported across the country called colony collapse disorder that it has not made public. "
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. John Wayne

  7. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Dingler View Post
    So no I'm sorry this idea that Imid on corn is the source of CCD just does not wash with the evidence.
    .
    well said, Bud

  8. #8
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    Default

    And here is a recent study (Oct 08) done at the University of Florida that shows that Imidacloprid does have serious effects on young bees.

    http://www.palmbeachpost.com/busines...arch_1022.html

    "Tiny doses of pesticides can kill baby bees.

    That's what research just completed at the University of Florida found when honey bee larvae were fed a diet laced with miniscule amounts of a nicotine-based pesticide."
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. John Wayne

  9. #9
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    Default

    sylus writes:
    CCD came along after the neonics came into widespread use for the treatment of seeds and the spraying of crops and residential areas. CCD symptoms mirror the description of how these chems work. Neonics have been found in 100% of CCD affected colonies.

    tecumseh:
    hummm.... well my casual reading of some fairly old bee magazines suggest that something that looked quite a bit like CCD was first reported in 1935 and then again in 1965. of course they didn't call it ccd in those days... the name seems to have changed but the general symptoms have not. are you suggesting that neonicatines existed prior to 1935... or ever 1965?

    the '60s outbreak was quite interesting in that they inverview state bee inspectors... plus reported some observation Mraz made while in mexico. at least one symptom (partial cause perhaps) reported in one of those old bee magazines was... an unseasonal drop in termperature and high humidity (sometime accompanied by rain or snow).

  10. #10
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    Default

    Just another note....a beekeeper in Florida who happens top be a bee inspector lost 250 colonies while pollinating this summer.....250 colonies not in pollination are fine.....no differance in mite treatment....just a considence????I think not!@ Leaky irrigation pipe with insecticides an dbees gathering water equals a higher dose of nict. say what you want but looka at common sence.....look how nic insecticides kill thenm look at ccd? see anything ? doesnt prove it but **** sure look suspicious!! Also I know one beekeeper WHO HAS NOT USED fluvinate or other chemicals for a number of years (has been using wintergreen, tea tree oil and thymol)....lost 1/2 of his bees to ccd two yrs ago....and all comb was not OLD!!! most comb was less than 5 yrs old. So quit blaming commercial beeks....there are alot of possiable causes but neon nic insecticides have to be at the top of the list!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!!

  11. #11
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    suttonbeeman writes:
    @ Leaky irrigation pipe with insecticides an dbees gathering water equals a higher dose of nict. say what you want but looka at common sence.....look how nic insecticides kill thenm look at ccd? see anything ? doesnt prove it but **** sure look suspicious!!

    tecumseh:
    curious. I wonder what the beekeeper/inspector was pollinating? depending on the type of crop and what area in florida this incident might represent any number of likely suspects. in the two cases you mentioned suttonbeeman what might they have had in common? did the two beekeepers have any suspects of their own beside neonicotine? do both OVERWINTER in florida?

  12. #12
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    Default

    >>Neonics have been found in 100% of CCD affected colonies.


    Thats an old claim, and found not to be true,
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  13. #13
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    It was one beekeeper....1/2 bees on pollination 1/2 not on pollination. The 250 not on pollination were treated the same as the ones on pollination....cucumbers. Bees are in Fl year around. Beekeeper is NOT migratory..just moves in Fl to flows/pollination. Numerous other beekeepers in Fl have had same experience. If you dont think insecticides have anything to do with CCD(NOTE: I"M NOT TALKING ABOUT MITEICIDES) you need to get your head from where the sun dont shine!

  14. #14
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    I recommend anyone making claims about the similarities of symptoms appearing in colonies and symptoms caused by neonicotinoid poisoning read the literature on what the actual observed symptoms in neonicotinoid poisonings have been.

    If you still believe the two are similar, try exposing a hundred or so of your bees in confinement to trace amounts of neonicotinoids.

    Also, keep in mind that neonicotinoids have been in heavy use in the U. S. at least since the mid to late 1990s. Where was CCD in 2001? Or 2002? And why isn't it most common in areas with the greatest use of neonicotinoids and the greatest corn growing areas? Based on the accusations in this thread, no honey bees should be able to survive in Illinois, Iowa, Indiana, Ohio, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri, or eastern South Dakota.

    Florida, in comparison, grows very little corn, and uses very little neonicotinoids.

    And, suttonbeeman, why would you exclude miticides from your accusation? Miticides are also generally insecticides, they're deliberately used in bee hives, bees are definitely in contact with them, and bees are exposed to much greater concentrations of them than to most other insecticides.

  15. #15
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    kieck writes:
    Florida, in comparison, grows very little corn, and uses very little neonicotinoids.

    tecumseh:
    first off kiech I pretty muc agree with your view. however..... they may grow very little corn (except a bit here and there in north florida) but they do grow a great deal of a vast variety of other stuff all over florida. one need only work a short while in some of the truck patches of central and south floria to come to the conclusion that those folks may well be relieving themselves on someone else's dinner plate (and thats been going on for quite some time). during my last little venture to florida (just prior to the first reported outbreak of ccd) I noted to my wife that all the springs in central florida suggested (by direct observation) that they were overburdened with human contamination. what had been crystal clear spring that pumped out millions of gallon of clear cool water per hour when I was young, now look somewhat like the outflow of a waste treatment plant.

    what bothers me most about suttonbeeman's post is first he suggest there were two beekeepers with almost the same experience and then later he states there was one. he also seems a bit guarded in revealing where the supposed loss occurred.

    there are areas in florida that have been in intensive agriculture production for quite some time, so the possible 'contaminant' could be almost anything produced in the past 50 years.

  16. #16
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    Auger Hole, MN
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    What I see happening a lot is you get one report of a bee kill on pesticides and the [edit by mod] who posts this makes an implication or accusation that see this XYZ pesticide is causing all of the current bee related problems.

    The German incident this spring comes to mind of [edit by mod] kind of reporting.

    Since the 1960's we have had isolated bee kills due to missapplication of pesticides or just plain bad luck. There is no reason to believe that this will not continue into the future. To date we do not have any data that suggests that a widespread problem exists with any particular pesticide that is wiping out hives on a widespread basis.

    We do have data that says most brood comb is heavily contaminated and that the levels are reaching LD50 in some cases. Furthermore we have published data that shows the damaging effects of these miticides on the reproductive abilities of queens and drones.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-14-2008 at 07:34 AM. Reason: name calling

  17. #17
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    I'm with you, tecumseh. I'm not claiming that Florida is pristine, or that no pesticides are used in Florida. Pesticides certainly are. And some forms of pesticides are no doubt more heavily used in Florida than in other parts of the country.

    But neonicotinoids are more heavily used in this part of the country than in Florida. And, from research data, neonicotinoid seed treatments have no significant effect on target insects just a few weeks after application.

  18. #18
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    The USDA and the EPA get most of their funding from the major chemical corporations. These organizations are also staffed at the highest levels by folks who have made their money and their names selling chemicals and selling the idea that massive monoculture pesticide dependent plantings are the inevitable wave of the future.

    These are political and corporate organizations, not regulatory and safegaurding institutions.

    "The Department of Agriculture has set up a working group of scientists from six universities, the Department of Defense, and the Environmental Protection Agency." Steve Croft, 60 minutes special on ccd

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRBJf57aNp4

    Now, if ccd is in fact pesticide poisoning (and it sure looks that way) and those pesticides were fradulantly approved by the EPA holding hands with the USDA while the agrichem companies were shoving greenbacks in their trousers, AND the EPA and the USDA are the ones, "leading the investigation", what do you think the chances are that you're going to get the facts man???

    Pretty slim my friends. Pretty darn slim.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by sylus p View Post
    Neonics have been found in 100% of CCD affected colonies.
    I must have missed the answer to my original question. Where did you get this data?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylus p View Post
    The USDA and the EPA get most of their funding from the major chemical corporations. These organizations are also staffed at the highest levels by folks who have made their money and their names selling chemicals and selling the idea that massive monoculture pesticide dependent plantings are the inevitable wave of the future.
    hrmmm, watch the video that bud dingler pointed to. the nhb funded this study of chemical residues in wax, trapped pollen, stored pollen, adult bees, brood...and found the highest levels of anything (and the most commonly found) to be beekeeper applied chemicals. watch closely....this study was funded by the nhb, and did not include funding for looking at what is in the honey. also note that the only place imidacloprid was found consistantly was in orange groves that were using it to fight citris greening.

    Now, if ccd is in fact pesticide poisoning (and it sure looks that way)
    well, there are pesticides applied by farmer/homeowner, and there are pesticides applied by beekeepers.

    and those pesticides were fradulantly approved by the EPA holding hands with the USDA while the agrichem companies were shoving greenbacks in their trousers, AND the EPA and the USDA are the ones, "leading the investigation", what do you think the chances are that you're going to get the facts man???
    and given that we have facts and data, it is the beekeepers who are 'holding hands' with the pesticide industry...in order to keep them available for use in the beehive....all the while, enjoying the "reputation" of honey as being the "last pure food" despite what some (most) put in their honey production colonies. pretty sad.

    deknow

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