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  1. #1
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    Jun 2002
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    parker county, tx
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  2. #2
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    Mar 2008
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    Crawfordville, FL
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    If it's safer for the birds and bats, I'm for it.
    The bees know!
    AKA Wormtounge

  3. #3
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    May 2006
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    Erie, PA
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    Interesting! I wonder if it would be small enough to offset the weight and windage of the shroud so you wouldn't need a hefty tower to keep it 120 ft in the air.
    “The keeping of bees is like the direction of sunbeams.” -Henry David Thoreau

  4. #4
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    Jul 2008
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    Limestone Co, Alabama
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodo View Post
    If it's safer for the birds and bats, I'm for it.
    Have to check on that Bezt limit thing.

    Since the company discussed is an 'aereo' jet plane type turbo company I 'spect' it will shred any wee beeings that enter the gizmo into small infinitesimal fragments before spitin them out.
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

  5. #5
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    Jan 2006
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    Loganville, GA
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    2,172

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    Maybe they'll go ahead and set up the composter bins on the effluent side.


    The guys up in our Jersey office have been telling me about a plan that seems to moving forward with a farm that's going to be installed some distance off the coast. Supposedly they will generate enough power to handle the states requirements. Seems the local fishermen are going to get into the power business.
    "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." Winston Churchill

  6. #6
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    Mar 2008
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    Thousand Oaks, CA USA
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    Wow, I had no idea some of you guys were so sensitive to the potential impact our energy production might have on critters, that's good to hear.

    While I applaud all efforts at alt energy production, I'm still on the fence re wind farms, primarily due to the hazard to fauna they may present--- although to be honest, I haven't done enough reading to learn what that impact actually is.

    I don't imagine it approaches the damage caused by the Valdez oil spill, the Santa Barbara oil spill, etc...

  7. #7
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    Jun 2002
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    parker county, tx
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    Quote Originally Posted by walking bird View Post
    Wow, I had no idea some of you guys were so sensitive to the potential impact our energy production might have on critters, that's good to hear.


    ...
    I know it is difficult to believe that some us actually like animals. I even feed and house birds and have two cats, and I feed the deer and the raccoons on occasion.

    My primary concern with the turbine concept is that I would have thought them more likely to pull birds into the fan mechanism, but maybe I don't understand the concept well enough.
    So many weeds.......so little time.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Hays, Kansas, USA
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    If you can, try to avoid the high rpm turbines. Those not only P$$$ off the neighbors with the ear shattering whining, wildlife do avoid them and may no longer be present at your area. A lot of wildlife avoid infrastructure of this type - prairie chickens are one bird for example that avoids infrastructure items.

    Beware claims made by some manufacturers. You will find unreasonable output ratings or ratings that require near 30 mph winds. Beware of claims reducing bills by any dollar amount or specific kWh, because the wind doesn't blow as dependably in most areas as one may think. Also beware of claims on output percentages- the most efficient commercial wind plant is in the Spearville, Ks. area. Florida Power & Light owns the wind farm. The are running at 35-36% of effective capacity.

    I have done some simple calculations and some wind plants take a lifetime to do simple payback, while others are coming in at less than a lifetime. There is always maintenance costs associated with any machine - investigate those costs also.

    I'm not against wind by any means and personally embrace it along with solar for alternative power. I am fully against wild claims that do not come true in any dream world. Take what the salespeople say with a grain of salt and do some research. There are some fine pieces of equipment out there and there are some real pieces of (fill in the blank at your option) being sold to unsespecting buyers.

    Research power quality issues also- the last thing you want is some valuable article of electronics getting damaged due to bad electronic harmonics. Even a circuit board for a furnace or other appliances for example, can be easily damaged.

    It's deja vu all over again! In the late 70's & early 80's, these things sprung up all over thanks to tax credits. Sad to say, but some of those machines never paid back their owners even with huge tax credits applied. There have been improvements available in some models while others aren't much, ir at all better than those failed attempts at alternatives we saw 30 years ago.

  9. #9
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    May 2006
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    Erie, PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swobee View Post
    Sad to say, but some of those machines never paid back their owners even with huge tax credits applied.
    Some things people do for the principle, not for the money. Like how some people pay more to only eat organically grown food and free-range meat. Or the US space program in the 60's. May not make money, but it (hopefully) supports and advances the technology and brings improvement in the long run.
    “The keeping of bees is like the direction of sunbeams.” -Henry David Thoreau

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Hays, Kansas, USA
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    Hobie - agreed. However, some people's principals are flawed. I deal regularly with customers who wish to installa wind generator or solar PV so we (the cooperative utility I work for) will buy their power. These folks are looking for reductions in their own utility costs and to profit from the 'excess'. After a little reality time with me or a coworker in the same department, so far, 100% of them leave disappointed, heart broken or just mad at us. If one is looking at $$ only, you will probably be disappointed to at least some degree. Albeit some states offer incentives such as net metering, rebates, tax breaks, etc. - ours does neither of those things. Ergo- most people I work with are looking at $$ whhile principal is in there some where. My heart tells me we can't keep using fossil fuels to generate electricity, but my knowledge of the market tells me another story.

    Our demand for electrical energy is expected to rise 40% in the next 25 years. Just a few years after I plan to retire, assuming I get to do that Now, our customers are aging, rural mainly and depend on fluctuations in ag commodities and energy (oil, nat gas, etc.) for much of their incomes. They also are concerned over energy costs in addition to being friendly to our earth.

    We buy more wind power than any other utility in Kansas and are proud of that. Unfortunately, wind may be free, but 'it ain't cheap' and in fact is the most costly power we purchase today. It's a genuine conundrum.

    Now for another principal story. A friend whom I only know socially through a public service club we both belong to is truely a fine man- for the most part. He is a college professor- geo physics in particular, works for NASA on sabbatical occasionally, gives the most awesome presentations on outer space and earth science facets to our club on occasion. A tree hugger's tree hugger. He travels by train now whenever possible because he believes the carbon footprint of passenger trains is less than air planes.

    Now for "the rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would say. While away on NASA work this summer, his wife contacted me to calculate the A-C for their home, as their unit had died and we were in a series of 100°F days. Not one stitch of insulation in the attic, side walls nor basement walls. Nada, nothing. Not only that, but there was a hole into the attic over the basement stairs so large that when I set my Little Giant ladder in place, I entered the attic without any effort. No bending, twisting, no hatch to remove, no obstacles in my way at all. Get the picture? Imagine a hole about 2' x 3-1/2' into the attic and no insulation in this home whatsoever. Imagine my surprise! There is a flaw in his tree hugging, obviously. Needless to say, after the utility company guy (me) was done with the inspection, a report ensued with suggestions. Their now-insulated home uses a butt-load less (technical term, look it up if you must) energy than it ever did and I have some more respect for him. This was one of the more extreme energy hogs I've encountered this year, but due to who's home it was - it was priceless!

    The world is full of people with great big hearts, but some of their heads are lodged somewhere else... in a dark place. He has now seen the light. He still thinks I'm nuts for wanting the state to allow an energy supplier of ours to expand their current coal fired plants. I respectfully disagree, because of my wallet and my customer's wallets. We will get to and we must get to some greater level of independance. But for now, we need energy and lots of it and at a decent price.

    We also need less tree huggers with no insulation in thier homes and more do-gooders (like me) to show them the light. If we all used CFL for lighting in our homes, we could shut down a number of power plants. But, the truth is, not all of us conserve. Instead we want to transfer from one energy source to another without conserving. Happy Holidays!

  11. #11
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    Mar 2008
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    Thousand Oaks, CA USA
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    all good points, Swobee. Sacrifice and additional personal conservation efforts are a huge part of the equation as we work towards clean, renewable energy sources, and it all starts at home.

  12. #12
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    Jul 2008
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    Limestone Co, Alabama
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    Default Sylvester & Tweety

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonfly View Post
    ...I even feed and house birds and have two cats...my concern with the turbine concept is that I would have thought them more likely to pull birds into the fan mechanism, but maybe I don't understand the concept well enough.
    Did you said you fed birds to your house cats..lol

    IMHO the corect term is wind dynamo, but that sounds so 19th century so the media has co-opted the term turbine. Wind generators are acually just a Dutch wind mill turning a dynamo. Turbine sounds so, so so, jet age and modern!!! The simplest turbo looking thinggy I can think of is the paddle wheel on a river boat.
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

  13. #13
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    Jul 2008
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    Limestone Co, Alabama
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swobee View Post
    ...some people's principals are flawed...I deal with customers who wish to installa wind generator...wind may be free, but 'it ain't cheap...and...is the most costly power...today....

    The world is full of people with great big hearts, but some of their heads are lodged...in a dark place. He has now seen the light. He still thinks I'm nuts for wanting the state to allow an energy supplier of ours to expand their current coal fired plants. I respectfully disagree...we need energy and lots of it and at a decent price...We also need less tree huggers with no insulation in thier homes and more...like me...to show them the light...But, the truth is, not all of us conserve...we want to transfer from one energy source to another without conserving. Happy Holidays!
    Very good and so true.

    Tell me Swobee, can you teach me about co-generation and electric power plant condensing???
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

  14. #14
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    May 2005
    Location
    Raleigh, North Carolina
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  15. #15
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    Apr 2005
    Location
    College Station, Texas
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    well I hate to break the new to ya' pilgrims, but with the price of oil headed south alternative energy 'alternatives' is yesterdays news...

  16. #16
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    May 2006
    Location
    Erie, PA
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    Oil prices are all an illusion. Bottom line, it is a non-renewable resource, and sooner or later the people using wind and solar will be laughing at us. NOw if I could just calculate if "sooner or later" is longer than "my lifespan" I'd be all set.
    “The keeping of bees is like the direction of sunbeams.” -Henry David Thoreau

  17. #17
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    Jun 2002
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    parker county, tx
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapfe View Post
    Did you said you fed birds to your house cats..lol
    Surprisingly, the cats rarely kill a bird here (there's been two in the past year, and I noticed these two were prone to hanging out on the ground. All my feeders are up high enough that I have to use a step ladder to fill them.
    Oh, and a good hunting place for the cats is under the feeders where the mice and field rats hang out.
    So many weeds.......so little time.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Hays, Kansas, USA
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    We had an old house with a combination bird feeder/cat feeder. There was an old cast iron skillet a previous owner put in a tree fork that grew around it. My wife placed some bird seen in it and we had a cat who hid in one of the branches waiting for a free meal.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Anderson,IN,USA
    Posts
    130

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    Hello everyone,
    Haven't heard anyone talk about hydrogen fueled generator or turbines. (Thought i'd open another can of worms here).

    Also, bought a 15 kw PTO driven (from tractor) generator to plug into our transfer switch when our power goes out at the house. I like the Honda generators of the same wattage but this PTO gen is about 1/2 the $ and leaves me one less engine to maintain. It operates at a lower harmonic distortion than our utility provides us. Love it.

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