registered logo design vs. trademark?

**sugar bandit #2** · 11-13-2008, 02:30 PM

Hello everyone,
I was wanting to create a new logo design for my hive products I sell at the farm market. I only sell a few hundred pounds of honey and a few other bee re-lated products each summer to support my hobby. I guess that if I was wanting to take the time to create a logo it would be nice to be able to protect it as I would like to grow this sideline someday. I haven't a clue to the trademark or register trademark process for a logo and was wondering if anyone could shed some light on this?
Thank you

**Ruben** · 11-13-2008, 02:33 PM

I have been told to expect a minimum of $500 and could be much more.

**sugar bandit #2** · 11-13-2008, 02:45 PM

$500? Ouch man! Must be a pretty involved process? Ay ideas which channels / hoops to jump though on something like this?

**Chef Isaac** · 11-13-2008, 05:13 PM

I would roll the dice. I do not think anyone will steel your label.

**alpha6** · 11-13-2008, 07:34 PM

Hey Chef...just watched your youtube vid. Nice job.

BTW where do you get your feeders. That is the second time I have seen those type but can't find them anywhere.

**Chef Isaac** · 11-13-2008, 08:10 PM

Those feeders come out of eastern, Washington... spokane I believe. If you would like the contact info, just let me know.

I fealt bad when doing the video for Kashi. It was in August and I was working both jobs and ALL my beeyards were a mess.

**Ruben** · 11-18-2008, 02:34 PM

>>>$500? Ouch man! Must be a pretty involved process?

No just a lawyer and the U.S Government

**MapMan** · 11-18-2008, 03:02 PM

"flowering plants to form a perfect partnership"... she sure pops those p's

Issac - nice site, you sure like exclamation points!!!!!!!!!!!

(If you want, I'll edit your site, there are a bunch of typos, and everyone here knows typos get me going...)

MM

**Durandal** · 11-19-2008, 08:06 PM

U.S. Copyright laws state that if you create it, date it, and can prove it, you own it for X number of years.

Your sales are small enough that it is not worth worrying over it. Simplest thing to do is design it, print it, mail it to yourself or have a document notarized and stapled to the label (notary should be a free service at the bank you use).

Not surefire, but it is documented proof of ownership.

**PCM** · 11-20-2008, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Durandal

U.S. Copyright laws state that if you create it, date it, and can prove it, you own it for X number of years.

Your sales are small enough that it is not worth worrying over it. Simplest thing to do is design it, print it, mail it to yourself or have a document notarized and stapled to the label (notary should be a free service at the bank you use).

Not surefire, but it is documented proof of ownership.

I will guarante this will not hold one drop of water in court !

This has been tried a number of times for many years with pattens & trademarks, and it does not work.

Do a search on the internet - trademarks - pattens -etc.

I Don't mean to disagree, but this is bad info. that has been floating around for years, in 1959 I know as I had a Aunt that tried it. The court wouldn't even accept it as evidence.

PCM

**sugar bandit #2** · 11-20-2008, 01:25 PM

Thank you all for the advice. I'll let you know how it goes.

**Durandal** · 11-20-2008, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by PCM

I will guarante this will not hold one drop of water in court !

This has been tried a number of times for many years with pattens & trademarks, and it does not work.

Do a search on the internet - trademarks - pattens -etc.

I Don't mean to disagree, but this is bad info. that has been floating around for years, in 1959 I know as I had a Aunt that tried it. The court wouldn't even accept it as evidence.

PCM

Patents and trademarks are different. I was speaking of copyright law. I should have been more clear. My apologies.

Copyright and proof of creative ownership (text, video, image, graphic, etc) is as simple as I just claimed it was and in court a dated document showing the date of its creation can be used.

If I take a photo, place it online with a copyright AND a date. Its copyrighted. End of discussion (not to sound confrontation). Copyrights is quite simple in that regard.

Now, the question like all matters legal is...is it worth defending on court or is it hurting your business? Most times the answer is no.

While, in theory, all three...patents, trademarks, and copyrighted material are all intellectual properties, they are all handled differently. Copyright can be applied for, but is also automatically granted under U.S. and International Copyright Law.

**Troutsqueezer** · 12-10-2008, 02:06 PM

"it would be nice to be able to protect it"

Interesting perspective coming from someone with the term "bandit" in their handle.

**wayacoyote** · 12-12-2008, 12:34 AM

Ha! Troutsqueezer,
I was thinking the exact same thing

**Bee-Bop** · 05-25-2010, 11:17 AM

"U.S. Copyright laws state that if you create it, date it, and can prove it, you own it for X number of years."

The above statement is correct and it is valid for the lifetime of the creator, PLUS 70 years. The statement below refers to a 'poor man's copyright' and is incorrect, though widely thought to be true.

"Simplest thing to do is design it, print it, mail it to yourself or have a document notarized and stapled to the label (notary should be a free service at the bank you use)."

If you want to protect your self LEGALLY, the best thing to do is to register your design with the U.S. Copyright office. The cost is only $35 if you register online; $50 if you register via snail mail.

You can find this information and more at the U.S. Copyright Office website at: http://www.copyright.gov/

Keep in mind that this only applies to the U.S.... International copyrights are a whole other ball of confusion.

Hope this helps!

Margie
(Graphic Design Educator)

**Omie** · 05-25-2010, 12:21 PM

Copyrights are for artistic creations- art drawings & paintings, musical compositions, writing and poetry etc.
Trademarks are for business and product logo designs, names, slogans, and label designs.
Trademark registering will cost several hundred dollars, and you have to do a search first for similar designs. With honey labels and logos, this would be a very real possibility, since so many honey businesses use images of bees and flowers and hives. You also have to pay to renew the registration every few years.
Then, if someone copies you it's totally your responsibility to take that person to court or sue them- you get to hire a lawyer and pay all your legal costs to fight them in court. And you could lose. And as Margie points out there are U.S. patent/trademark/copyright protections and there are international ones- two different applications. Most product design pirates are located overseas. Not easy to sue them.
You can always just create a new logo instead.

For a small scale honey label and business logo?- I'd say not worth it. Just make and sell your honey products and enjoy it. If your business gets huge then think about it again.

(FWIW I'm a patent and trademark illustrator for a living.)

**Bee-Bop** · 05-26-2010, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Omie

Copyrights are for artistic creations- art drawings & paintings, musical compositions, writing and poetry etc.
Trademarks are for business and product logo designs, names, slogans, and label designs.

Omie, couldn't she at least copyright the logo as an artistic creation?

**Omie** · 05-26-2010, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Bee-Bop

Omie, couldn't she at least copyright the logo as an artistic creation?

Well, did she actually create the art, or did she use clip art type images arranged around the business name? If the latter, that would be a trademark issue- the combination of the business name with the design around it. You can't copyright pre-existing clip art images as your own artistic creations.

Regardless though, protecting any copyright, trademark, or patent you may have attained is only as good as the lawyer you are going to hire to drag the offender to court. The question really is how many hundreds of dollars is someone willing to spend to protect their logo/trademark/image?

**The Soap Pixie** · 05-26-2010, 12:40 PM

You can file for trademark (logo or biz name) on your own. First you would search to make sure there isn't a trademark on that logo or name:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?...009:t1ethf.1.1

Here is the application to apply for your trademark yourself:

http://www.uspto.gov/teas/teasplus.htm

It will cost you about $300 unless you go with an attorney and several people I know in the soap business paid up to $1500 for a lawyer to file.