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  1. #61
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    Default

    >>I've seen some outfits on the prairies with 4 boxes high and the feed buckets on , so one has to be careful when pointing fingers.



    Just for the record, every beekeeper that operates around my area manage their operations to prevent any adulteration of anykind. Myself included,
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  2. #62
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    Default some thoughts,jean marc, by me

    jean marc said

    I want to comment on Irwin's post # 60. It's interesting to see that some packer's test for honey and if they refuse the load because of residue issues, they do not notify the FDA. They justify that position by saying it's not my honey so it's not my problem. At that point they've only tested the honey and have not paid for it.To a degree I understand what they are saying. The honey then re-enters the market thru another packer, at least that's what the honey broker wants.

    "In a way it would be in the interest of packer #1 to "blow the whistle" on that load of honey. It would be in his short term interest to have that honey removed from the market particularly if it gets offered to a second packer for a few pennies less. Packer # 1 is competing with packer #2 who has access to cheaper albeit contaminated honey.

    So how come packer #1 does not blow the whistle? Does he value the relationship with the honey broker so much that he does not want to cause him any grief ? Is there such a shortage of honey that from a packer's point of vue it's better to pack honey with residue or honey that has circumvented duties than to pack no honey at all? From the packer's point of vue the worse that can happen to him is not to have honey to pack. Whether that honey is cheap or expensive if you do not have any you cannot pack it and resell it."

    some thoughts by me on your comments Jean

    The contaminated honey being returned to the broker is not viewed as a serious unhealthy product........no one has died yet ,or seriously been injured ,with a resulting lawsuit against the packer of any contaminated honey.I am sure all packers carry a good insurance package and know where to find good lawyers. This is still a law violation,(not reporting it ), and I think the law is a new one.
    I cannot recall of any packer ever reporting to FDA antibiotics,adulteration or any contamination in honey. he bought or was about to buy.... this doesn't say too much about this group.This is a very small group of people, companies and they know each other like you and I know fellow beekeepers and they communicate quite well between themselves

    The packer who tested and found residue has covered his butt by not buying the honey.
    He does not wish to cause the broker pain, or the cost of destroying the honey, and wants to keep this supplier of large quantities as a supplier,especially if honey becomes short in supply.
    Broker is looked at as a supplier of services, he supplies honey, don't shoot the messenger cause he ended up with some bad product to sell, and you may need this service down the road.China may or may not produce some good honey,depending on which packer you ask
    Broker can probably supply a lot of good honey as well as the bad, which he may or may not be aware of- false or unrepresentative samples sent to the broker.
    If you were a honest packer and you did accidently end up buying a load of adultrated or contaminated honey, how hard do you think it would be to get rid of it and not lose too much or any money?Me thinks not hard

    The contamination could be blended out, to less than what could be found by present
    testing, this I am guessing would be relatively easy, so the contaminated product becomes wholesome honey again and no one is any the wiser........ this could be and maybe is happening on regular basis.
    Latest rumor I heard there was a certain packer or packers who were " specialized into" packing contaminated honey and the sting operation wasn't over yet, but soon would be. Funny one bad egg can ruin a whole carton,this might or might not be good for the industry as a whole ,right now.
    The brokers soon learn who tests, who buys what ,and where the market is for this contaminated or adulterated honey, or combination of both
    Its the same old game that has been playing for ages..... its called "we win" for the broker and "we win" for the packers......just got to bend the rules a bit... the big losers are the consumers and risk to their health, the producers of pure product,the US gov't which loses the revenue off circumvented honey and the entire industry .....which stoops to a new low.
    Packers and their associations do not want to police themselves and the less they have to do with FDA and gov't regulations then the better off they think they are.As one packer said "FDA is the regulator". The FDA have been hampered with limited resources dealing within a small honey industry base and only a lot of pressure and sometimes personal funds by a few dedicated individuals in AHPA has resulted in the news we see.If you are a honey producer , an investment in membership here is the best investment money can buy.

    One only has to look at the list of honey importing countries into the USA and Canada, how it has grown the past few years,countries who suddenly increase honey production by impossible precentages (900% in one year)....but not all of this honey is coming from china by transhipping but it is coming from all over the world. The market is growing and needs honey.It prefers cheaper imported honey,it grows even faster when that honey is cheaper than what it can be produced here for..... the industrial bakery trade market seems to be leading the pack and I fear it will be taking the biggest hit in this recession.....maybe a good thing it doesn't require pure white honey,just the cheap stuff
    Last edited by irwin harlton; 01-30-2009 at 09:02 PM. Reason: info added

  3. #63
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    Default softing market .. lower prices?

    http://www.skamberg.com/honey.htm

    Honey Update:

    January 2009

    Sioux Honey is reporting to us that they believe that there are still some
    substantial price differences between legitimate honey in the world market
    and honey that is highly questionable (adulterated, contaminated,
    circumvented through a 3rd country). Sorting out the good from the bad can
    be very difficult (costly & time consuming). Sioux is still leading the
    industry with their testing, and they continue to reject any honey that
    does not meet their stringent standards.

    The raw honey market has been very fickle in the last few months as honey
    producers throughout the world try to determine what effect the world wide
    economic crisis will have on honey consumption. Prices started to soften,
    then quickly firmed up because demand has not fallen off. Additionally
    there appears to be more evidence of lower priced Chinese honey entering the
    U.S. market transshipped through a 3rd country

    Colony Collapse Disorder is still a real issue. Sioux has received reports
    of some beekeepers losing up to half their colonies. More CCD reports will
    probably start coming in as beekeepers prepare to move their bees into the
    almond groves in California for pollination. The time period from now
    through March is when we they get the best indications of how bad CCD will
    be this year.

    U.S consumption is still strong as we continue to consume over twice as much
    honey as we produce in this country. Final numbers for the 2008 U.S. honey
    crop are not in yet, but the crop was considerably better than last year.
    Prices for U.S. honey were very strong as the crop came in, but we did see
    some softening of those prices over the last couple months, again as
    uncertainty in the economy grows

    The strength of the U.S. dollar against the Euro is a factor that has helped
    the U.S. to compete for some of the honey in the world market. Over the last
    year, the weakened U.S. dollar had put them at a huge disadvantage competing
    against Europe for the same honey. That exchange rate has fluctuated over
    the last months, and most believe are now in a better position to bid for
    raw honey in the world market.

    Europe, whose insatiable appetite for honey has slowed a little, still is a
    major factor in world honey market pricing. They continue to shy away from
    Chinese and other Asian honey as they concentrate on South American honey
    that is just entering the market. Much of South America is under extreme
    drought conditions. Argentina has been especially hard hit, and their honey
    crop projections are dismal (possibly half their normal crop).

    Even with raw honey crop shortages in South America and demand for this
    honey remaining strong, prices could stabilize at slightly lower prices
    going into the 2nd quarter of 2009.

  4. #64
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    Default

    With a high demand and crop shortages I don't think prices will stabilize at a lower price. They could but I don't think so. The damning thing is here we have to compete with chinese honey that is adulterated , contaminated and or is circumventing duties. We compete on price only, not quality. This is what would keep the so called legitamite honey prices from rising. So how do we as an industry change this.

    Jean-Marc

  5. #65
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    Default Honey

    Does the Canada Govt. check very close for this " funny honey " up north????

  6. #66
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    They check. I know they check the stuff on store shelves. I don't know how close they check the industrial market. I don't think they check to many barrels coming off a shipping container, but I'm not really sure about that. Maybe others no more about that than I do. For sure they check product that's either on store shelves or about to be delivered to stores.

    Jean-Marc

  7. #67
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    Default . So how do we as an industry change this.

    Supposedly there is a law coming up whereby all food will have country of origin,on its label. the "bad "packer or packers won't be able to sell their tainted product .........chinese labelled honey will not sell in the market place , ........... they will be forced to buy the Good honey( will drive up its price I'm sure) or lose their market share completely...... the market will fix itself ,once correct labelling is in place........... or do we end up with more transhipped honey?Was this part of the COOL program, ... not sure... Obama resened all Bush's legislation passed in last 60 days, I think this was part of it
    For a better explanation please see http://www.americanhoneyproducers.org/
    open American Honey Producer Magazine 4th Quarter 2007 - In PDF (633 KB)
    see page 12 topic UPDATE: TRADE ORDERS ON HONEY IMPORTS
    FROM CHINA AND ARGENTINA

    In one way I hope you are right Jean,. about prices continuing to climb, god knows producers need fair value for their product..... the other side of the coin is what happened in 2003-2003 and producers were told the shelf price became to high( by packers) AND prices quickly dropped from their peak .... once the stimulus pkg gets rollin and the markets get to "normal" there is going to be one hell of an inflation on all prices,commodities including honey......... but thats down the road.......2 weeks at least
    Last edited by irwin harlton; 02-02-2009 at 05:31 PM. Reason: more info added

  8. #68
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    Default this " funny honey " up north????

    http://www.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrkti/tdst/tdo/tdo.php#tag



    USA honey imports into Canada 2008 were up 62.9% from 2007............
    usa was second largest importer after Australia
    Usa value of imports was2.2o8M $ canadian
    All honey exported by Canada is tested for CAP by US buyers, reptuable buyers!!!!!

    maybe best keep your funny honey at home, we produce a surplus up here..... don't need anymore.......... all imported packaged honey and bulk is vigoursly tested by CFIA ........ anybody seen that tooth fairy

  9. #69
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    Default January honey report S. Kamberg

    "That exchange rate has fluctuated over
    the last months, and most believe are now in a better position to bid for
    raw honey in the world market"

    European honey buyers are quietly ,intently making inquires................ could quietly steal whats left of Canada's 2008 crop......... not much white honey out there.............even less will be produced in South America............ note how quickly the Brazilian crop was bought by US ,CANADA, EUROPE.......... and it wasn't primarly white ,mostly dark organic

  10. #70
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    Default

    >Was this part of the COOL program

    We, being Canadians, have to be very careful on where we stand on this issue. Don'T forget we are net exporters of our raw produce.

    I don't disagree with labeling and all, Canada has a real reputable name when it come to food production,

    What we have to be very careful with is HOW we label our foods , and what is actually involved with labeling our foods a certain way.

    Remember we are trading in a worldly market, we are mixing food product from each and every way. If the labeling gets so strict that it starts requiring cost increasing processing practices, we as exporters get hit with that extra cost.
    Take grain trade for example, to label that bag of flour "US", there would have to be absolute separate storage facilities, and processing runs to accommodate the legislation. Our Canadian flour, even though is has some of the best qualities in the world, gets lumped into the "foreign" label, not "Canadian", unless they decide to mill it separate. Fat chance,

    Its a cost we are already seeing with our cattle trade. It has cost us .10$ / lbs and more on our meat. A cost straight from the processors passed on to the Canadian cattle producers because of increased slaughter costs incurred by having to run segregated slaughter runs.

    Same thing will happen with our honey,
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  11. #71
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    Default whatever it costs to rid the market of chinese honey

    I will gladly pay it,its been around for 30 + YEARS.If thats what takes, country of origin labelling, then let it be.Producers are already paying a tremendous cost in lower prices because of it...... so prices can only get better not worse

    Adultrated,contaminated,transhipped chinese honey is the curse of the world honey market,especially the northAmerican and the US market in particular where60 -70 % of the US market must be supplied from the world market.They have been effectively blocked out of the European market, leaving them only the North american market to dump into. Add to this that the chinese honey is dumped at below market prices for whatever reason..............figure the cost of this on what you could possibly get for your product.Just look at the prices they were dumping at in 2008.see http://www.honey.com/honeyindustry/s...4countries.htm
    These dumping prices affect the price of all honey,no matter what colour or grade .

    Competition in industry is good, its a world market out there, what and how they are selling chinese honey is not competition, its a crime.......... and they have been getting away with it for far too long........any other food industry would have slaughtered em by now but we are a tiny, fractured , divided industry with more than its fair share of crooks
    Last edited by irwin harlton; 02-02-2009 at 10:48 PM. Reason: corrections

  12. #72
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    >>Adultrated,contaminated,transhipped chinese honey is the curse of the world honey market,especially the northAmerican and the US market in particular

    Well lets target the adulterated, contaminated, and transshipped Chinese honey then. Lets not bring in legislation that not only impedes Chinese produce, but also the rest of the trading worlds produce.
    Tariff and trading restrictions do not work well with a world trading system. I know that, you know that. If its the adulterated honey we are wanting to keep out, then lets keep it out. If its simply Chinese honey we want to keep out, then, I am afraid your trying to have it both ways. Next on your list is Argentina? Brazil? Remember we Canadians also export most of our honey production,

    >> will gladly pay it,its been around for 30 + YEARS.If thats what takes, country of origin labelling, then let it be.

    I cant afford it. I trade more than just honey. We sell meat and grains. Legislation like this will and has already cost us, and I am afraid we are just seeing the start,
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  13. #73
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    Default Protectionism,dumping,and cake

    I agree protectionism will only lead to trade wars and a widening of the recession

    yes, realize I can not have my cake and eat it too, ( would be nice, ) like the chinese have been able to currently do.
    The problem being there is a market here for not only their legally duty surcharged honey plus their illegally adultrated dumped honey but
    also a bigger "good' market for their illegal, contaminated product.
    The even bigger problem is the current laws which allow this crooked thievery to be carried on.
    No USA definition of the product honey, no ability to discern a honey by its composition to its country of origin.
    Only sometihng like only 1 % of all food imports are examined at entry,so FDA Is really behind the 8 ball.
    Current FDA bulletients list imported honey from Canada with imports from china,viet nam, malyasia, etc...
    as having CAP in 80% of the honey imported, so FDA cannot even get that right,OR they are simply being over cautious.
    The problem is not going away under the present rules and would still be a problem under the transhipped honey with country of origin rules. It may be just a choice of the lesser of two evils or one evil being easier to fix
    Last edited by irwin harlton; 02-03-2009 at 01:29 PM. Reason: corrections

  14. #74
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    Rec this offer today. Argentine honey. Duty paid US Port. Wt-$1.60 ELA-$1.55, Lt Amb-$1.50 Spanish Orange-$2.20 , 100,000 lbs of each. Also have one request to export to Germany, if honey passes standards and another request to ship Sage to Saudi Arabia. The market is looking for honey. That is a good sign.

  15. #75
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    Default Yes

    reports from Argentina on their honey crop are not good..............................

  16. #76
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    Default

    In the offer of sale of Argentine honey, they estimate this year crop is down 33%.

  17. #77
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    Default

    So that is 33 % less honey than last year from Argentina? Or are they sending the barrels 2/3 full?

    Jean-Marc

  18. #78
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    Default

    I read somewhere a frost swept across Mexico a month or two ago, and killed off one of their flowering plants. They claimed the frost cost 1500 thousand lbs. of white honey.
    Any truth to this?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  19. #79
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    Default Argentina honey price increases to beekeepers

    from 6.20 to 6.70 , Argentina pesos per kilogram

    http://www.apitrack.com/noticias/aaa...el_es_open.htm

  20. #80
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    Default

    So I went to Allend's website and he has a currency converter. Today 6.7 Argentinian pesos per Kg is equal to .87$US/pound. What would freight be? 15 to 20 cents per pound. What's the duty? Cause it sure looks like the Argentinian honey broker is the man to be in all of this.

    Jean-Marc

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