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Bulk honey prices and market outlook

824K views 1K replies 169 participants last post by  The Honey Householder 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Deflation , then inflation and currently a whole bunch of de-leaverageing going on in this crazy economy, which I hear from the majority with crystal balls, that is only going to get worse as a recession or a depression .
Heard some packers had dropped their offering prices......... hadn't noticed any downward pricing going on the store shelf's,to the contrary , prices were actually going up there.
A Canadian honey broker recently had a offer out for 1.50 Canadian,picked up in your yard, drums lost , for 10 loads, alot of phone calls later the order was filled and she is working on another order for the same price,I hear. Canadian dollar was trading around 1.25 US. That may be GOOD PRICE at present market conditions........ but I doubt it.I don't think supply and demand have entered the big picture yet.Other Current Canadian offers were 1.40. UK honey is selling at up to £2.30 per pound in BULK- source Bee -L.
Maybe that supply and demand won't enter the pic if the packers get there way.

I must remind myself that honey is not one of those necessity foods like bread and milk and that I don't need to be quite as greedy as some of those wall street folks
 
#32 ·
Prices

$1.50 on small lots.
We had to go down to a $1.30 on the last 25 drums or so from $1.40.
Drums exchanged & a split on the freight.
Real nice looking & tasting alfalfa honey.
Hated to go down on the price as we have a new honey house to pay for but the packer we sell to needed help on the & he is a great guy to do business with.
Just not many of his kind left any more.
 
#33 ·
What I'd like to know is if honey is moving? There are times when very little honey moves. Typically it's dec/january, before the Argentinian crop comes on market. Packers are hoping prices will be lower or use that threat to keep prices suppressed. So is anybody having difficulties moving honey? This is assuming that the price is not ridiculously low. With a supposed lower Argentinian crop forecast I would think demand is stronger than usual.

Jean-Marc
 
#34 ·
Honey movement is slow or non existant

Just my opinion, and according to the Mid U.S. Honey Hot line, what little honey is being sold is moving to small packers at good prices.
This would be " normal" for this time of year, if you can call anything normal anymore.
The big question on suppliers and buyers mind is how much the recession is going to crush the sales or demand?????
Packers would like you(producer) to believe the worst case scenario.and they don't like to carry high priced inventory when there's chance of cheaper stuff down the road
There is a world shortage of honey......growth of the US industrial market for honey has been phenonimal......just look at total imports for last couple of years
The big problem is the cheap trans shipped , laundered chinese honey.......keeping the price of all honey down.....a few dedicated fellows in the American Honey Proudcers ( God Bless them ) have been pursueing these loopholes and lawbreakers for 10 long years. Their efforts are finally bearing fruit.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/395172_honey08.html


Irwin
still looking for a home for my honey

My favorite personal Greenspan quote is the beauty right below.

"[Hedge Funds] …are essentially free of government regulation,
and I hope they will remain so.
Why do we wish to inhibit the pollinating bees of Wall Street?” seekingalpha.com/article, 12-16-2008
 
#35 ·
ya, it was about two years ago, about this time of year packers started throwing low ball prices, as low as .65$/lbs. Before it was trading from .75$ to .85$ .. It did sucker some producers into selling, for they bought the rumour "someone" sent around that South America had a bumper crop.
Well South America had one of its worst crops in the last 10 years, which infact seems to be the trend right up til now.
It bought us at least .5$ to a 1$ on our honey pricing. Alot of folks bought into that false story, and paid for it.

Groups like this, where we can interact between beekeepers and share worldly information provides us with such better insite than following the local crouds mood.
:)
 
#37 ·
It's interesting to see that according to those numbers beekeepers are getting better money for their honey today than 2003. I guess that was the year of the chloramphenicol tainted chinese honey. Kinda make you wonder. In Canada prices paid to the producer were way higher, mind you our dollar was weaker at the time. What this tells me is that the argentinian honey brokers make North American honey packers look like angels and that there must be a very small crop out there. Irwin I must say I like those little gems.

Jean-Marc
 
#38 ·
Irwin Thank you for the link to apitrack. Its interesting reading . Unless I am mistaken the Argentines (producers) are recieving about .79 (USD) per pound at their location per pound. Its my understanding the much of their crop is destined to the US ? Although it looks like Brazil has shipped more to the US this year the net result would be a shorter supply hence higher prices here to the producers here and in Canada ? I know other factors are involved as well.
I would like to Thank You, Ian and Jean-Marc for the straightforward disscussions I have read on Beesource... Rick Alexander
 
#39 ·
Packers are looking for honey!!!!

I held out as long as I can. Finally got 3 offer from different big packers. I just sold a whole load of white honey for $1.29 lb. I only wish I had another month to work the packer against each other. Sorry to say someone had to win. With the cost of bees up again this year, I can't hold this honey forever. Don't sell for any less guys. The packer I finally sold to, first offered me $1.20. LOL That was a good one. When I counted back with $1.29 and told them they only had a day before I sold to another. They called back within two hours and took it. The week before they told me they can get all the Canada honey they want for $1.20 deleivered.
PACKER DON"T LIE:doh:
Ron
 
#40 ·
ya, you got to have a target price for your production, otherwise you will watch the market rise and then go back down. Selling on the way up is the way to go.
When pricing your honey, and trying to make a decission on to sell or not, it helps to calculate the interest incurring on your line of credit. If you hold on for another three months, you simply subtract that cost off your $$/lbs :)
 
#41 ·
Then allow for inflation

Correct, Ian, one can catch himself going backwards at times.

But with interest rates all over the place and inflation rising and falling in rapid gyrations, one also needs to consider the value of the money he receives. With maybe 1.6 trillion dollars pumped into the banking system, one needs to be aware that hyperinflation is a distinct possibility over the next few years.

Honey is edible gold, and will always have enormous power at street level. Its value in relation to eggs and milk may not change much at all. As such, it becomes a monetary unit in its own right. It may be a better money to save than gold itself.
'
The French have a word I Like. It is 'numeraire.' It roughly means, 'that by which we value all else.' Dollars are no longer a valid numeraire. So try measuring every thing you work for, everything you need, and everything you already have in pounds of honey for a while and it will give you a whole new insight into whether to buy, sell, or hold.

Honey in the tank is money in the bank!

Cheers,

JohnS
 
#45 ·
Free line of credit

Correct, Ian, one can catch himself going backwards at times.

But with interest rates all over the place and inflation rising and falling in rapid gyrations, one also needs to consider the value of the money he receives. With maybe 1.6 trillion dollars pumped into the banking system, one needs to be aware that hyperinflation is a distinct possibility over the next few years.

Honey is edible gold, and will always have enormous power at street level. Its value in relation to eggs and milk may not change much at all. As such, it becomes a monetary unit in its own right. It may be a better money to save than gold itself.
'
The French have a word I Like. It is 'numeraire.' It roughly means, 'that by which we value all else.' Dollars are no longer a valid numeraire. So try measuring every thing you work for, everything you need, and everything you already have in pounds of honey for a while and it will give you a whole new insight into whether to buy, sell, or hold.

Honey in the tank is money in the bank!

Cheers,

JohnS
The Honey in my tank is hard as a rock.
I just finally had to buy a new truck and it cost me 34 barrels of honey. Thats down 3 barrels from last year at this time. In April I have to pick up 600 package to get another season started and that will cost me another 29 barrels. The load of FHC I just got in cost me 11 barrels. You know your right looking at it this way it isn't that bad. The only bank I use is my warehouse. By the time I get my money from the packers I have to pay everyone else. Boy if it wasn't for those Packers. It must be nice to have a free line of credit.
Ron
 
#42 ·
value

John makes some good points. While no one knows what the price of honey will be at any time in the future at least we know have produced a tangible (and edible) product that fulfills a basic human need. Unlike some other businesses that refer to themselves as "industries" at least at the end of the year I know I have either directly produced or indirectly helped in the production (as in pollination) something of real value. Now back to my day job as hedge fund broker.........just kidding folks.
 
#43 · (Edited)
Reptuable honey packers

test all the loads they are going to buy, for the antibiotic that is the signature of bad chinese honey.When found they do not buy, merely return it to the seller, who readily pursues another buyer.The FDA is not notified, or for that matter do they care???????
USA- CONCEALMENT OF TAINTED IMPORTED HONEY WIDESPREAD, U.S. HONEY PRODUCER SAY

see http://apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm

Hmmmmmm , is there something wrong with this picture, the inmates are running the jail I think.
The result is the contaminated honey eventually gets sold, probably at a even lower price than the initial offer and ends up blended AND OR on the shelf.
The good reputable packers are doing nothing to rid themselves of the industry scum..... they must love cheap competition , or maybe there hoping the scum will get caught ,and what ? pay a fine?


Irwin


Experience is one thing you can't get for nothing.
Oscar Wilde
 
#46 ·
FDA update on honey imports

http://www.fda.gov/ora/fiars/ora_import_ia3604.html


A #36-04, 12/10/08, IMPORT ALERT #36-04, "DETENTION WITHOUT PHYSICAL
EXAMINATION OF HONEY AND BLENDED SYRUP DUE TO PRESENCE OF
***FLUOROQUINOLONES***" " ATTACHMENT A 1/5/09

some politicians are speaking up http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56372

A long and bitterly rewarded war has be waged by the American Honey Producers Association
against the contaminated Chinese honey.........it will take more time ,more money and more dedication to win this war
The FDA or the USDA have no definition of the food called honey.

Normally any contaminated food found is destroyed.......... not with honey , not that it is too valuable, it is just to dam easy to sell into a demanding market at the right price.

irwin

We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.
Winston Churchill

Geography has made us neighbors.
History has made us friends.
Economics has made us partners, and necessity has made us allies.
Those whom God has so joined together, let no man put asunder.
John F. Kennedy
 
#48 ·
>>Normally any contaminated food found is destroyed.......... not with honey , not that it is too valuable, it is just to dam easy to sell into a demanding market at the right price.


I dont doubt your comments, but I really dont understand how that is possibley happening. I am very involved with the cattle industry, and you know as well as I do how sticky they are with contaminated meat. If anything is found, everything is discarded. I would only expect the CFIA to do the same with honey, and if its a case where packers arnt reporting the contaminated imports, then, dont you feel they would be setting themselves up for a big liable mess?
 
#50 ·
Tainted honey

I want to comment on Irwin's post # 60. It's interesting to see that some packer's test for honey and if they refuse the load because of residue issues, they do not notify the FDA. They justify that position by saying it's not my honey so it's not my problem. At that point they've only tested the honey and have not paid for it.To a degree I understand what they are saying. The honey then re-enters the market thru another packer, at least that's what the honey broker wants.

In a way it would be in the interest of packer #1 to "blow the whistle" on that load of honey. It would be in his short term interest to have that honey removed from the market particularly if it gets offered to a second packer for a few pennies less. Packer # 1 is competing with packer #2 who has access to cheaper albeit contaminated honey.

So how come packer #1 does not blow the whistle? Does he value the relationship with the honey broker so much that he does not want to cause him any grief ? Is there such a shortage of honey that from a packer's point of vue it's better to pack honey with residue or honey that has circumvented duties than to pack no honey at all? From the packer's point of vue the worse that can happen to him is not to have honey to pack. Whether that honey is cheap or expensive if you do not have any you cannot pack it and resell it.

Jean-Marc
 
#51 · (Edited)
Perhaps a government comment on the issue would be more reputalbe than that from a news link,

>>Bruce Boynton, the chief executive of the board, a trade group created by the U.S. Agriculture Department, said policing honey is the FDA's job.

I find it real hard to believe the govenment of our country would allow any known adulterated foods to be knowingly traded,

If they get caught doing so, you know, they would get jail time,..
 
#52 ·
he is appointed by usda, but does not work for the usda, he works for the nhb...which is a private trade group. another officer of the nhb (bob coyle) seems to be armpit deep in the "honey laundering scam"...it seems actions have been started to seize his house.

the nhb also declared "the bee movie" an educational film, and i believe spent 1million dollars co-promoting it.

deknow
 
#53 ·
it is an offence not to

report a "reportable food" under the Food and Drug Administration Amendments Act of 2007 (FDAAA

http://www.foodprocessing.com/articles/2007/286.html

Failure to notify FDA of a reportable food is added to the list of "prohibited acts" in the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act.

And we in Canada are not saints, a certain eastern Canadian packer upon finding some contaminated honey in his inventory, asks the CFIA what he should do, they said ship it back to china and he did,........now if you believe that it was shipped back to china,you and I both believe in the tooth fairy.
Needless to say that packing company changed ownership last year.

I guess the bottom line is nobody has died YET from consuming contaminated honey,.... that we know of.... a person would probably have to eat several pounds at a sitting to endanger his life, unless allergic to the antibiotic chemical .Most of this product is put into the industrial bakery trade market where 10 cents worth of honey allows the manufacturer to put honey on his label.The good name of honey has been taken in vain many times
It is however burying an industry,nailing it to the cross.......the American honey industry deserves better respect from those packers handling it one step away from the consumer and from those who promote it......they are worth nothin compared to that product HONEY

Some in the industry seem to think that they can sweep this little bit of dirt under the carpet, where it can hide and no one will notice it.......but it ain't going away and neither are the AHPA
 
#54 · (Edited)
re Bob Coyle

Give a crook enough rope and he can usually manage to hang himself. Investigators have tellexis's from his Chinese supplier stating supplier is worried about the contaminating chemical being found by FDA and supplier saying chemical is going to be around for a couple of more years...... the rewards must have been worth the risk or it was soooooooooooo easy in the past couple of years to pull this off........the market was there


Bob says he's going to get out of the honey brokerage buissiness.......pretty hard to run a buissiness from jail.......he has conspired to defraud the US govt out of alot of money.Being
homeless and in jail at the same time isn't harsh enough punishment for this low life.

Of course one is ALWAYS INNOCENT till proven guilty in a court of law.........hope they throw away the key

In China they recently executed two people in the melamaine milk scandal..............kinda like their justice for people who want to mess with food for a profit ....that causes loss of human lives
 
#56 ·
>>certain eastern Canadian packer upon finding some contaminated honey in his inventory, asks the CFIA what he should do, they said ship it back to china and he did

I wonder what he found in the honey,?

Im confused a bit. Maybe I have just assumed any foods that have found to be adulterated have to be destroyed.
there was some packed coop labled honey in Alberta that had been taken off the shelf because of adulteration of some kind, hoeny from china.
What happened to that honey? Did they distroy it? or was it shipped off to someother market else where in the world?
 
#57 ·
ZERO TOLERANCE FOR chloramphenicol????

chloramphenicol,an banned antibiotic in food OR the trademark for Chinese honey
I really forgot how nasty this stuff is

Humans may develop fatal aplastic anemia if exposed orally to chloramphenicol (risk is approximately one person in 25,000).
This condition is irreversible and is not dependent upon dosages. For this reason, chloramphenicol has been banned from food animal use in the United States as well as from human use.
Washing hands after handling this medication is recommended.

Chloramphenicol is a potent, broad-spectrum antibiotic drug and a potential carcinogen used only at therapeutic doses for treatment of serious infections in humans. Due to the unpredictable effects of dose on different patient populations, it has not been possible to identify a safe level of human exposure to chloramphenicol. Therefore, Federal regulations
in the United States, Canada and the European Union prohibit its use in food producing animals and animal-feed products,including honey bees


The FDA is concerned about any detection of chloramphenicol in foods, according to Dr. Lester M. Crawford,
FDA Deputy Commissioner. "The Agency will take whatever action is necessary to protect the public health."
Therefore there is a zero tolerance for chloramphenicol in food. FDA is requiring testing for chloramphenicol to be one using FDA's LC/MS/MS method validated down to 0.3 ppb. But any confirmed residue below this level is considered food contamination.

Seems to me zero tolerance goes out the window when contaminated honey is returned to the seller, to do with whatever he pleases with it, and the FDA,CFIA is not told of the "bad" product.

Chloramphenicol tells the packer it's chinese honey no matter what the country of
origin says on the documents.
Sue bee and a few other reptuable packers test every load that they import,even all Canadian loads..... must be alot floating around

You can even buy your own rapid ready portable test for chloramphenicol,... you guessed it, direct from china, see
http://www.alibaba.com/product/zhan...amphenicol_Residue_Rapid_Inspection_Test.html

Hmmmmmmm , a couple of brands of honey on local grocery store shelves I wouldn't mind testing myself.Only takes 10 minutes and sensitivity up to 0.3ppb

http://www.adpen.com/chloramphenicol in food and feed.htm

There is also quinolones found in Chinese honey......http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroquinolone... and the whole resistance thing to all antibiotics..none of these should be in honey ....but they are
 
#58 ·
Adulteration

Ian and others:

I don't think the issue with chinese honey is adulteration. If there were better/cheaper tests for adulteration then I'm pretty sure it could become an issue. I've seen some outfits on the prairies with 4 boxes high and the feed buckets on , so one has to be careful when pointing fingers.

The issues with chinese honey are 2 fold. The residue issue with chloramphenicol, which unfortunately for them is banned in food. As Irwin pointed it's zero tolerance. So I guess being so clever it looks like they've switched to another antibiotic class fluoroquinolone. As a nation China is probably experiencing difficulties controlling AFB, EFB and who know's maybe some mutation of one of the above or some other bacterial disease.

The other issue is there great desire and ability to circumvent duties. It's unfortunate that their talents are wasted on such devious activities and not used in something productive.

Assuming that the good governement decided to destroy a load of honey, how do you suppose they would do that? I dson't think flushing it down the sewer would work to well. Just imagine granulation down the line.

Jean-Marc
 
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