Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Buying nuc vs. package bees

188K views 68 replies 53 participants last post by  volare71 
#1 ·
The pros and cons of nucs and package bees for first hive.
 
#34 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

mythomane writes:
Did I mention that his is a "cash only" business?
Could I have walked away at any time? Yes. Would I have taken a loss any way you look at it? Yes. I decided to suck it up and move forward. The bees that I have left are doing fine and I try not to remember where I got them. Know what exactly you are paying for and from whom. Try to avoid deposits if at all possible. Buy from a reputable/experienced seller. Seems simple doesn't it?

tecumseh:
although I take deposit (primarily to insure the buyer shows up at or about the 'ready' date) I also have no problems taking a check. but of course you are right the 'cash only' should have set off an alarm bells in your head.

I think every newbee should reread your post twice prior to buying any form of bees (package or nucs). Believe me the same shuck and jive could have taken place if you had purchased a package.

pbudd writes:
The nucs were open when I arrived and the beekeeper taped them shut just before I got them. Shouldn't they be closed the night before to insure the most bees?

tecumseh:
maybe yes and maybe no. weather would somewhat effect this decision as would just how certain (or uncertain) the beekeeper might be as to whether the customer would show at the appointed time... add to this the scheduling challanges during a very busy part of the season. on most occasions I do not.... I typically am much more concerned with what is IN the box and don't loose much sleep worring about losing a few field bees.
 
#36 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

Packages are nice when a beekeeper has experienced a loss and needs to fill boxes.

One tip,

keep an extra queen on hand just in case of a dead one in the package, it happens. Usually with larger orders, there is an extra supplied.

Also figure on at least one or two percent queen failures. It happens, and can be remided if you check up on the queen within a week and then two. That extra peak might just allow you to find a problem, requeen the hive and have it alive to winter in the fall rather than taking it as a complete loss in the spring.
 
#37 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

When I pick up nucs, I arrange for a late afternoon pickup. I always buy nucs priced without the nuc box, this way I get the opportunity to inspect them as I transfer them into my boxes. Then I set my boxes where the old ones were and wait until dark to shut them in, load them up and leave.
 
#38 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

Cons:

The bees that come in a package are southern, and for a Northern beek looking for local stock, that's not an option.

Packages come, way too early for northern beekeepers in my opinion.

No guarantee that your queen is laying.

Bees starting from scratch, no drawn comb, brood, honey, pollen etc.

Pros:

It can be a confidence booster to take 3-5# of bees and dump them into a box.

"practice" for working with swarms. Generally a swarm will be starting from almost nothing as well.

either can help expand the genetics in your yard which could be good or bad depending on the genes

For what it's worth, I bought a package 2 years ago from Dave Smith, and it's my strongest hive! The only one producing excess honey so far. They don't seem to want to swarm either which is interesting. Nice bees to work with, queen still laying strong and doing well.

I also like what Michael Bush mentioned about being able to choose equipment size with a package of bees. Every nuc i've gotten has been on deep frames and that makes it tough to stick with medium boxes, which I prefer.

:)
 
#39 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

Only dumb question is one not asked. Seems like a fair question that I do not know the answer to, and wish someone would answer. Thanks!
Thank you for saying it. I enjoyed this post. Did not know much about NUC's. I started with packages and just did some splits into NUC's. Did not really know you could buy them. Not sure if I would still. But, thanks for the info on it.:thumbsup:
 
#40 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

A beekeeper told me the other day he recently heard of a club in the Midwest that sold nucs made up from bulk bees delivered from almond groves combined with cage queens. The day before the nucs were delivered to the buyers they were assembled and the caged queens were added. The buyers were told to be sure to treat them with Fumagilin because all of the nucs had nosema. :eek:
 
#42 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

I would say for an absolute beginner with no experience, packages, marked queen, on new foundation. They are docile, easy to handle, and as your experience and confidence grows, the hive grows. Checking the hive frequently will allow you to see their progress and as a beginner you will check it frequently, you won't be able to help yourself! You will first see eggs, then unsealed brood, then sealed brood. If you have read a few books, and asked some questions, you will know if it is a normal time frame. Failed Queen? Yes, that happens, sometimes, over the years I have had few in packages, that were promptly replaced by the supplier.But most beginners would probably recognize it quicker in a package than a nuc, because the nuc already has multiple stages of development. The beginner may not know if what they are seeing is normal. With a package a beginner does not have to evaluate the condition of old combs, then worry about how to work them out of the hive, if they are not acceptable, if they even know what is acceptable. I've seen packages that were duds, I've seen nucs that shouldn't have been hauled home. I personally prefer package, then I know what to expect with no surprises, and can create my own problems, without buying them. Should a person never buy a nuc? That is not my position at all. A GOOD nuc is a definite head start, but in my humble, but correct ;) opinion you need to be able to tell if it is good nuc. If you are confident you can tell a good nuc, then buy it and dance away with glee. If you are not confident that you can honestly evaluate a nuc, then package. I personally look at either as an investment for next year, with no plans of a crop from either the year they are started, but have been fooled , when they turned into boomers, and have supered for late crops. The one biggest piece of advice when starting either is FEED,FEED,FEED. Heavy going to winter is always better than light. My late Father taught me how to keep bees, his philosophy was simple when it came to honey harvest. Plenty for the bees,some for me, then some for others. In that order, always.
 
#45 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

Timing is everything, but you have no real control over what matters like when it gets cold, when it gets warm and when the first blooms happen. Some years it all falls into place where the earlier packages do better because it's just cold enough long enough to keep them from all drifting and then it blooms soon enough that they get a good kickstart and then it stays warm enough they can keep moving forward. Other years it blooms too late, stays too cold and it's a struggle just to keep them alive and then the later ones do better. It's all in the details and you have no control over most of those details.
 
#48 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

In Georgia, I got a package of bees in 2009, in late May -- this was way too late and they didn't do well because they had completely missed the major nectar flow. In 2010 I got two nucs in April and they both did great; they hit the ground running because they already had brood going, and quickly build out frames of comb and produced honey.
 
#49 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

MB nailed it in post #46. Most years, though, a "well timed" nuc will not only out produce a package but quite often out produce a strong overwintered colony which is prone to issues of swarming and queen aging.
 
#50 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

Since I produce nucs in Alabama, I will answer an earlier question on this thread. I sell four frames of bees, brood and a free ranging laying queen. This is in its own wooden box. The person buying this little box of bees should transfer it into their hive replacing four frames. Most of the people buying them are brand new to beekeeping. So all they have is five frames of foundation around the four frames of drawn brood comb. I tell them to force feed the bees all they will take in the form of a 1-1 sugar syrup. Even if there is a flow I tell them this because I want them to get their bees across the box in about two weeks. Once across the box I tell them to put their first two supers on. The first one is for the bees for a food chamber and the second one is theirs. Usually, these people have very good luck by producing a super of honey the first year. Thus they come back and buy more nucs the next year. That is what it is all about--happy customers. TK
 
#51 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

If you have someone local selling overwintered nucs in the early spring (April or early May), there's no way I would suggest a beginner turn that down. Those bees have proven themselves geneticaly as survivors and would have a lot more going for them than a package of unrelated bees that might kill off the equally unrelated queen. Last year our club had horrible queen acceptance from the southern bred stock. It seems that over 50% of the queens were lost (balled, stung, spontaneously died, or superceded).

Local beeks rearing their own queens and overwintering nucs to sell to local beeks solves this, and other, problems.

Don't get me wrong, package installation is a good skill, but I hope to never purchase one again.
~Reid
 
#52 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

I picked up a nuc from Everything Honeybee on 6/11/11 and put them in an observation hive in my house. They are doing very well and the queen was laying even as I was transferring them to the ob hive. Most packaged bees I have seen on "pick up day" had many dead and they still have to draw out comb before the queen can start laying. I prefer nucs.
 
#54 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

I am not experienced enough to advise whether packages, OW nucs or spring nucs are best. It may well come down to the weather.
The hardest thing for a newbie with no bees to overcome is the SOLD OUT sign. The OW nuc ordered in Feb may end up dead in May or used to replace the sellers own losses. Spring nucs may still be available for a longer drive, maybe not.
For good or bad the package will come. At least hedge your bet the first year or two.
 
#55 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

There was a discussion at a meeting last night in No. Cal. of how some beekeepers ordered 75 nucs last year. Over 50% of them were africanized. So I guess that could be one more reason to not buy a nuc unless you know for certain where it came from. Probably local will always be better then out of state....
 
#57 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

Over 50% of them were africanized.
I have to ask how it was determined that the bees were africanized. It's not uncommon for bees to replace their queen. If their queen was a hybrid then her offspring may tend to get mean. It seems like everytime someone runs into hot bees, they claim they are africanized. If you don't have paper from a lab confirming that bees have AHB genetics than it is irresponsible to claim bees are AHB. Sorry, I'll step down from my soap box now. That topic does get under my skin and the bees in question may have truly been AHB. I have to ask every time because there are so many irresponsible claims that hot bees are africanized.
 
#56 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

In AFB areas Local is going to be the greatest risk. Bees that are shipped from out of state have health inspections done and while not specifically looking for AFB traits, if the inspectors suspect AFB they will not issue the certificate.
 
#59 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

In AFB areas Local is going to be the greatest risk. Bees that are shipped from out of state have health inspections done and while not specifically looking for AFB traits, if the inspectors suspect AFB they will not issue the certificate.
I am not aware of any states that give AHB free (I presume you mean) certifications. Texas used to but I think they quit.
 
#58 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

The woman giving the presentation said they knew they were because they were not only very aggressive, but would follow people over 200 feet from the hive and not stop the attack. That is all I know....
 
#62 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

The woman giving the presentation said they knew they were because they were not only very aggressive, but would follow people over 200 feet from the hive and not stop the attack. That is all I know....
I agree with Beyond the sidewalks. I have had bees that would follow for a lot farther than 200 ft and most certainly were not Africanized. Many hybrids are often that aggressive, 2nd and 3rd gen Buckfast are often un-manageable because they are so hot.
 
#60 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

should a bee keeper worry about bringing in diseases or pests when purchasing a nuc that comes from many states away and /or on dated frames?
or is there equal chance of contamination by purchasing pkg bees?

I am still learning on bees , but I do know people who always buy cattle, hogs and poultry at sale barns have a lot more problems with disease and pests.
so far I have not found any local stock pkg bees or nuc's for sale only migrating bees.
 
#61 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

Buzz

IMO the risk of disease is less with packages. Packages only come from commercial producers, it is very easy to research what sources people have good luck with and what sources to avoid. With a nuc it is more important to get a good recommendation for a supplier... Anybody can raise a nuc and they may be full of disease.

If I wanted to purchase a nuc as somebody who was new to beekeeping I would ask on here who to go with. Buy from the members who have a long history on the forum and frequent posts. It shows that they have a reputation with the forum which they value so they are less likely to sell a bad product that word of will resurface on the forum. Members with few posts and/or a short history can just as easily sell a bad product and then resurface under a new user name.

Avoid searching for random websites when looking for nucs... you never know what you will get. I know of one person selling "Northern Survivor" stock at a premium, but on their website it states that their mother queens come from a supplier in Southern California. There are all kinds of shady deals out there... which is why I would only go with good recommendations from either this site or your local bee association.
 
#63 ·
Re: e) Buying nuc vs. package bees

I have dealt with Africanized genetics in the past, they were pretty unmanageable. I have also dealt with an occasional mean hive which often mimicked AHB pretty closely. I would mark them as a hive that needed requeened but often it would not even be noticeable the next time it was opened. A number of factors can trigger mean behavior in a hive such as skunks, weather, shade, how often they were opened or even how they were opened. The only way I know for sure if a hive has AHB genetics is a lab test but a pretty good guess can be made by observing a hive for a period of time taking into consideration the likelihood that AHB could be present in your area.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top