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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Auger Hole, MN
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    434

    Default

    someone said

    "My honey is subjected to rigorous lab analysis before it is bought"

    the big packers do rigorous analysis and then compare the data to their own internal specs which meet or exceed EPA regs for trace chems.

    so this statement above does not neccessarily mean the honey is free of beekeeper applied materials. not sure of the context of the poster.

    in the upper midwest, the use of homeboy treatments that are illegal is the norm. many commercial beeks have been fined in MN and NoDak in the past years. a recent BCulture informal survey showed something like 65% of all beeks surveyed used a hard chems to treat for mites.

    in general beesource is full of smaller beekeepers not the big boys who never would say in public or online what they are using for mites.

    i am against the use of hard chems in any hive but the truth is not many users of beesource make their sole living only with their bees so the finger waving here is kind of hypocritical.

    its easy to point finger when your honey business is a hobby or sideline.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Limestone Co, Alabama
    Posts
    1,675

    Default I don't want to rain on your parade, but!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I will buy chicken from a seller that goes out of their way to inform me that antibiotics were not used, etc. This is what I buy:
    http://www.millerpoultry.com/about.php
    First things first, 99.9% to the tenth power of all poultry antibiotics are administered in the chickens' drinking water not in the chickens' feed so Miller's claim and your belief are only technically correct.

    Second thing, the animal protein requirement for growing healthy chickens is high and complex. I have seen chickens almost kill each other over such treasures as fresh cow patties, baby rats, mice, dead skunks, and live snakes up to about 18 inches long. You will have difficulty raising 10% of your baby chicks on vegan chicken feed unless cannibalism is high. (Read the post about chickens keeping wax moths in check)

    Third thing, this ad is an elaborate bed bug letter, except Miller used the fact that the Old Order Amish don't use electricity to hook you on a vision. They do however use small diesel engines (no spark plugs) and leather mill belts to pull ventilation fans, and propane, LNG, natural gas, coal, or wood to fire the brooders. The Observant Mennonites here use similar devices, and also use them to power their sewing machines, water pumps, and sawmills, MP2T.

    Forth thing, Miller I assume is a member of the National Poultry Improvement Program. It is required in order to be in the Interstate poultry business. They at a minimum must vaccinate, and test to be allowed to ship their eggs to the hatchery, their baby chicks to the growing houses, and their fryer/broilers to slaughter or market.

    Think of it as a Federal government AFB free certificate needed every time a bee leaves or returns to the hive. Then again they can buy hatching eggs with Kryptonite in them and still make the same claim, as long as the hatching egg was laid by a NPIP hen and contains only NPIP rooster spermatozoa.

    This said, let's all go back to those trilling days of yesteryear, if it makes you feel good, do it.
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Davis,South Dakota,USA
    Posts
    402

    Default

    If youre not aware of all the bathtub concoctions (Taktic, Mavrik)that some commercial guys "treat" their hives with then Im not the only who could be called ignorant.[/QUOTE]

    Gee, who has the rubber ducky and the bubble bath.LOL

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    43,419

    Default

    Since the foundation you put in your supers comes from cappings (as there is seldom any wax worth trying to extract from brood combs) and since that has been shown to be contaminated BEFORE you even put it in your hive, I don't see how you can say that supers don't get contaminated. Or that your honey is not contaminated? How did the cappings get contaminated in the first place? And now that you put them (in the form of new foundation) in your supers, how is it not contaminating your honey even if you never put any chemicals in your hive?
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Farmington, North Carolina
    Posts
    256

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    do ya'll consider anything put in the hive s to be un-natural? like essential oils?
    Papa Bear, I'm not sure who you were directing that question to, but at this time (and for over 10 years) we have not put any treatments on our hives. I think each person has to decide for themselves what is acceptable to put in the hive and what is not. We will continue to avoid treating our hives for as long as possible.

    Susan

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    College Station, Texas
    Posts
    6,985

    Default

    mr laury sezs:
    My honey is subjected to rigorous lab analysis before it is bought. Don't think you can say the same for flea market.

    tecumseh:
    first a couple of questions... why is the above necessary? and could anyone really be certain as to what such test might or might not tell you?

    well I do sell a bit of my crop at a local flea markets and not one single customer has ever asked for my housekeeping seal of approval.... most seem to be seeking a product that is authentic, unadulterated and local. I think most know that they don't live in a 'clean room' or sanitized bubble.

    (based on conversations) folks who are significant honey consumers seem to me to be quite aware of some of the stuff that is being placed into hives. I don't think??? it profits any person producing product to hide their head in the sand and pretend the consuming public is ignorant in regards to these matters (actively avoiding a topic typically implies guilt).

    to be quite honest I am not a purist is regards to treatment. if a hive is sick I treat and some small level of treatment I do simply because I do produce a insignificant number of nucs. so I will likely continue to treat for afb* and nosema in the winter months.

    in regards to treatment of any kind...the really bottom line for me is that I am really not interested in helping produce a super bug (like the existing model of the varroa ain't bad enough). given the past history of the varroa anyone who places 'pest strips' inside of a hive (in my small mind) is aiding and abetting the varroa.

    mathis pollinator writes:
    Just as anyone would treat their livestock cows, chickens, pigs, or any thing else they have. I can not and will not rebuild the amount of hives and investment we lose by my not caring for my bees.

    tecumseh replies:
    my good neighbors to the south (and they are most definitely commercial) advertise that they do not.

    your statement does suggest two problems...

    the first problem mathis is that the 'insecticide' (pest strip) treatments will eventually insure resistance. so you are only delaying the inevitable. if you are using 'shop towel' treatments you are likely speeding up this process.

    the second problem is in regards to product and hive contamination... which is a problem that is typically passed off to the honey consuming public.

    *after several years of importing a significant level of minnesota hygenic stock I will likely curtain any treatment for afb this year (wait, watch and see). I mention this in that this does suggest that strategy (which is really what integrated pest management is really all about) can minimize treatment (it should also limit how quickly pest obtain resistance).

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,197

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by high rate of speed View Post
    Gee, who has the rubber ducky and the bubble bath.LOL
    With a remark like that, it appears you do. Quite telling when one won't engage in a levelheaded discussion, but resort to sarcastic remarks.
    Regards, Barry

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,197

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G. Laury View Post
    My honey is subjected to rigorous lab analysis before it is bought.
    By who? Please share with us the breakdown of elements found in your honey and the levels of each. I'm interested to see what "rigorous" means.
    Regards, Barry

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,197

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapfe View Post
    First things first,

    Second thing,

    Third thing,

    Forth thing,
    Lot's of speculation here with no facts given in regards to Miller.
    What is a fact is that there is a hi/low range within any ag product when it comes to traces of drugs and chemicals. I'm looking to consume from the low end.
    Regards, Barry

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,197

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Dingler View Post
    i am against the use of hard chems in any hive but the truth is not many users of beesource make their sole living only with their bees so the finger waving here is kind of hypocritical.

    its easy to point finger when your honey business is a hobby or sideline.
    Help me understand this.

    To my way of thinking, being hypocritical would be when a hobby or sideline beekeeper criticizes a "big producer" for using hard chems and then uses these chems in their own hives.

    *hypocrisy - the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

    I'm not into pointing fingers as much as I am into letting consumers know what they're getting when they buy MY honey.
    Regards, Barry

  11. #51
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Fresno California USA
    Posts
    2,496

    Default Rigorous testing

    Hi Barry

    When I sell to Golden Heritage foods, my main buyer, they run chem analysis for all the miticides and antibiotics. They also analyze for BACTERIA even. I send them a sample first for prelim screen. Then when honey is received it gets tested again. Takes nearly 30 days to complete. This is not done in house but by an independent lab. If you have an inkling that there may be residue you wouldn't want to ship honey to them because if it doesn't pass you pay freight. I have never had any of my honey come up with even minimal residues. I do use a hard treatment but very carefully. The material I use has not shown up in the pollen contamination studies AT ALL because it does not have an affinity for honey or wax, unlike the APPROVED materials ( fluvalinate & coumaphos ) both of which did appear. Yes there is some misuse of chemicals but not all of the contamination is from homeboy treatments I don't think.

    This thread has been good for me because it made me think and wonder why I felt so threatened by the blanket comments about chemical use. The reason is that I take a great deal of pride in what I produce and wouldn't sell something I wouldn't put on my own table, yet my living depends on the well being of my bees. So I have to make choices. Walk a mile in my shoes before you accuse criticize and abuse.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Cambria County, PA US
    Posts
    400

    Default

    Tom, what size of an operation are you talking about? It would help put things in perspective. How many hives, and what's your moving schedule throughout the year?

  13. #53
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Fresno California USA
    Posts
    2,496

    Default Dug

    I don't know what difference it makes, but I operate about 800 colonies. Go to midwest when dry in Calif. In the good years I'll produce 100 + drums. Bad years I don't wanna talk about.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    196

    Default

    Interesting. . ?
    Obviously a touchy issue for many?

    Have no intent to get into this fray, but a total disregard for a post from Deknow does speak loudly than many would like!?

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,197

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G. Laury View Post
    they run chem analysis for all the miticides and antibiotics. They also analyze for BACTERIA even. I send them a sample first for prelim screen. Then when honey is received it gets tested again.
    So do you get a printout of the analysis or simply a pass/fail notice?

    I have never had any of my honey come up with even minimal residues.
    This statement leads me to believe that you are not given a copy of the complete analysis with all breakdowns shown. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    I do use a hard treatment but very carefully. The material I use has not shown up in the pollen contamination studies AT ALL because it does not have an affinity for honey or wax, unlike the APPROVED materials ( fluvalinate & coumaphos ) both of which did appear.
    So your wax did show contamination of fluvalinate & coumaphos if I understand what you wrote above?

    Walk a mile in my shoes before you accuse criticize and abuse
    I don't recall accusing or abusing you in what I've written. I am critical about the use of chemicals and drugs and the purity of honey. I'm also a bit skeptical about the testing and what levels are considered acceptable due to the fact that those acceptable levels have changed over time, and I don't mean they've become more stringent, but I won't push this issue too hard.

    If the little guy can manage things in such a way where chemicals and drugs aren't used in their hive, why the apparent animosity for them making this known to the consumer?
    Regards, Barry

  16. #56
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Fresno California USA
    Posts
    2,496

    Default Analysis

    I have seen the printouts on the desk no they don't send them out but I am sure they would if requested. If you really want to know just contact GH these people are highly ethical.

    Wax contamination I refer to is the post in this thread by deknow, I think you just wish my wax showed contamination.

    What acceptable levels levels have changed over time? What fact are you referring to?

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Limestone Co, Alabama
    Posts
    1,675

    Default Don't **** on me and tell me its raining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    ...I will buy chicken from a seller that goes out of their way to inform me that antibiotics were not used, etc. This is what I buy:
    http://www.millerpoultry.com/about.php
    After viewing this sight I would like to make some pertinent observations.

    Observation number one: All poultry antibiotics to the power of ten are administrated to poultry in their drinking water. Your poultry supplier is only technically correct in saying they don't put antibiotics in their chickens' food.

    Observation number two: The animal protein requirement for a growing chickens is high, we're dealing with a modern T-Rex here. You will not raise many chickens on vegan chicken feed unless cannibalism is rampant, This is from my and my families involvement in commercial chicken farming, and operating our own processing plant and broiler houses just like Miller. Later we went into layers, same thing applies. When I raised chickens as a hobby, I saw "free" range chickens eat live snakes 18 inches long. I saw them devour dead skunks, scent and all. What they do to baby mice and rats is right out of Jurassic Park. A hen with chicks will follow a bovine around for hours waiting for the cow to poop. Miller telling us a chicken can thrive without animal by products don't make it so.

    Observation number three: The idea of Old Order Amish farmers caring for chickens is bucolic and romantic. However, the chicken houses Miller Poultry described in their ad is the same description of any modern chicken house, except that the Amish don't use electricity. The Amish do use small Diesel engines (no spark plugs) to pull belt and pulley systems driving exhaust fans, water pumps, air compressors, sewing machines. The Mennonites here use the same devices. Remember, the Amish are a break away sect of the Mennonites. Miller has their customers hooked on a fairy tail of the customers' own making.

    Observation number four: There is something in the poultry industry called the National Poultry Improvement Program (NPIP). You must participate in NPIP to ship poultry or eggs in Interstate Commerce. Under NPIP you must test, and or vaccinate for certain poultry diseases. How can Miller ship their eggs to the hatchery, their chicks to the Amish, their fryers to slaughter, and their broilers to you without NPIP approval?

    Observation number five: Miller never said where their hatching eggs came from, they can come from a hatching egg farm that feeds Kryptonite to their breeders as long as the eggs are laid by a NPIP hen and contain only NPIP certified rooster spermatozoa.
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Fresno California USA
    Posts
    2,496

    Default Ah Scrapfe

    Thank you for the dose of reality.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Fresno California USA
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    2,496

    Default On the way home

    Tonight I was looking forward to Barrys' response and thinking to myself how much easier it is to be a sniper than a point man. But the point man makes progress.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,197

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapfe View Post
    Don't **** on me and tell me its raining
    Excuse me?

    Observation number one [snip] five
    What is a fact is that there is a hi/low range within any ag product when it comes to traces of drugs and chemicals. I'm looking to consume from the low end.
    Regards, Barry

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