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R U ready to get mad?

19K views 78 replies 27 participants last post by  Joseph Clemens 
#1 ·
When fielding questions at farmers markets and presentations-
Ive noticed that John Q. Public doesnt seem to realize that it is standard proceedure for most beekeepers to dose their hives with miticides and antibiotics at least once, twice a year- Mavrik., etc.

They are vaugely aware that the bees are in some kind of trouble but... When I let it slip once or twice that most keepers poison their hives, I noticed that people were really shocked that "natural, raw honey" comes from hives where the bees were dosed with pesticides .

ok get ready... here it comes...

SINCERE YET RHETORICAL NAive question ALERT!...

Do we, as beekeepers have any responsibility to inform the public about possible toxic exposure from what has been marketed as pure and natural- for decades?

Have our practices helped to perpetuate the decline of the honeybees and decieved the public?

Matt
 
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#2 ·
You let this information slip while you are selling honey at the farmer's market? :doh: SMMOOOOTH! Personally, I don't put ANYTHING in my hives but bees. Our honey is as pure as the air we breathe and the water we drink.:rolleyes:
 
#3 ·
No offense Matt, but it appears that you don't know too much about honey production.

One, I don't know of one commercial beek that threats their hives with honey supers on.

Second you statement "When I let it slip once or twice that most keepers poison their hives" is absolutely false. Since when is treating any type of livestock and yes bees are considered livestock "poisoning them? Do you poison your child when you give them an antibiotic? Do you poison them when getting them vaccinated?

Third, when you buy a pound of beef does it list all the antibiotics, vaccinations, growth hormones, and the feed they were fed, to include what pesticides and and other chemicals were used on those crops? No it doesn't.

I suggest you stick with telling people what is in your own hives and not tainting the beekeeping industry with sensational half truths and assumptions. :no:
 
#6 ·
I suggest you stick with telling people what is in your own hives and not tainting the beekeeping industry with sensational half truths and assumptions.
The truth is, some chemicals used by beekeepers ARE toxic to bees. Surely you're aware the effect coumaphos is having on bees and comb, especially queens? There is no debate about this. The only area of debate is purity of honey, and everyone would have to have their honey tested to know how pure their honey really is.
 
#4 ·
Do we, as beekeepers have any responsibility to inform the public about possible toxic exposure from what has been marketed as pure and natural- for decades?
There is a mindset with some that it doesn't really matter what goes into the hive in way of treatments and drugs as long as the honey stays "pure." Some claim to test their honey and the USDA standards they go by are the same ones that keep being readjusted up to allow more parts in honey.

I know it's a touchy issue, but for me personally, I let my customers know that I do not put anything into my hives that the bees do not bring in themselves. No, I don't open feed either. I will not claim that my honey is more pure than . . .
 
#37 ·
I know it's a touchy issue, but for me personally, I let my customers know that I do not put anything into my hives that the bees do not bring in themselves. No, I don't open feed either. I will not claim that my honey is more pure than . . .
Agreed. Greg and I don't use chemicals on our hives either. We did at one time, but quit over ten years ago.

Susan
 
#10 ·
Ive noticed that John Q. Public doesnt seem to realize that it is standard proceedure for most beekeepers to dose their hives with miticides and antibiotics at least once, twice a year- Mavrik., etc. :no:

They are vaugely aware that the bees are in some kind of trouble but... When I let it slip once or twice that most keepers poison their hives, I noticed that people were really shocked that "natural, raw honey" comes from hives where the bees were dosed with pesticides . I WOULD BE SHOCKED TOO! :scratch:

Do we, as beekeepers have any responsibility to inform the public about possible toxic exposure from what has been marketed as pure and natural- for decades?
Matt
I must be "John Q. Public", because I didn't know we would even THINK such a thing, let alone do it.
http://www.beesource.com/news/article/adeefined.htm :doh:

Matt, I am not sure who your beekeeper mentor was, but I would dump everything you were taught and start over. Find someone new that knows what they are doing. Or if you want, start asking questions in here more. There are so many smarter minds than mine, in here, that will give you more guidance than you could ask for. :thumbsup:
 
#13 ·
Mendocino, I'd suggest putting together a pamphlet together for your visitors. Inform them of all the poisons you use for your bees. Explain to them which ones are approved for use and which ones are from a back of the envelope method. This will greatly decrease the perhaps ignorant questions from JQP.

For those that ask me, and many do not, I do explain what I use to treat my hives with. I do not share with them what others use but rather say I only eat honey if I know the management practices of the producer.

I think the price of local honey managed conscienciously is generally underpriced. Large beeks just do things differently. http://www.beesource.com/news/article/adeefined.htm
 
#14 ·
Third.

Fact is, commercial beeks put stuff in their hives that most people would not want to eat if they knew. IMO, if you are small producer/don't treat with hard chemicals, you should feel free to tell all you know about your honey and your methods compared to what people can buy in the grocery store. That includes the localness of the honey, the extent that it is heated, the extent that it is filtered and certainly what chemicals are likely to be in it. Then, by all means, charge what your product is worth in the eye of the consumer.
 
#15 ·
>>>>R U ready to get mad?<<<<

Yes, to find out a fellow beek would spew out such garbage to the public is enough to make the pope use profanity. We have enough problems without you doing such a disservice as that. Poisoned bees do not make excess honey crops for us to harvest. Any bees that are poisoned won't be the ones that made the honey we are selling.

Barry, I third the notion.
 
#16 ·
Barry,

Actually I wish they would post what all is in beef, pork and chicken also. The truth is I hunt most of my meat (true free range) and buy the rest from organic ranches which in this area there are several of. I buy most of my veggies from local gardeners and actually trade honey for them so the cost is minimal which is nice.

I have heard that some beeks use some toxic chemicals (but don't know any personally) and that there is a build up in the combs and that it can transmit in micro million parts into honey through bee to comb to honey contact, but that being said, there is a new breed of commercial beeks like myself and others in this area and other areas I am sure that prefer to treat with essential oils and though other means like using oxalic acid and drone comb cut out methods.
 
#17 ·
Hi Everyone,

Thanks Barry-I got your back.

Well, I did indeed iritate a couple of people. ;) sorry...

Lets try to get this right...

I (personally) am a:

Garbage spewing, ignorant, self hating, in need of mentoring, fool because I stated what appears to be very obvious: Some keepers use mitecides and prophalactic antibiotics in their beehives. The general public is unaware of this fact. Then you guys ARE saying the people should NOT be told what their foods are exposed to. Hmm -interesting definition of integrity. Low levels of avoidable toxic contaminants are ok as long as the people dont know about them AND the guy who merely mentions opening a conversation between honey producers should be shouted down and insulted. OK fine.

But there are keepers with integrity.

Bayer and others told us to use poison to "treat hives" Only the survivor super mites made it into the gene pool.

Translation for the simple : treatment:it stopped working.

Now do you want another "treatment" to misuse?
What's going to happen then? Demand another and another.
We as an industry are no farther along than 20 years ago- with the exception of VSH and russian projects.

Anti biotics- there are relatively few effective antibiotics. When we eat small doses everyday in milk, eggs, chicken and yes honey, they too become ineffective. Again natural selection. Bad bugs survive and reproduce.

Mitecides are indeed poison by definition. they kill mites.
Suposedly below the threshhold to kill whole hives- according to the US Govt and corporations...and you put your blind trust in them?

If youre not aware of all the bathtub concoctions (Taktic, Mavrik)that some commercial guys "treat" their hives with then Im not the only who could be called ignorant.
 
#18 ·
If you are selling a used car, do you tell the prospect all the things wrong with it, or all the things right with it? It's that simple.

If you were to take a tour of one of each type of food processing plants, you would likely starve to death before you could eat anything bought at a store.

I order eggs for breakfast, do you order unborn chicken embryos? There's just some things that aren't spoken about in public circles.
 
#19 ·
Ignorance

Ignorance breeds fear. I have spent my whole life keeping bees and there is nothing I am prouder of than the honey my bees produce. It is subject to rigorous inspection prior to purchase and packing. Who in the HECK is this johnny come lately at the FLEA MARKET and what is he doing demeaning my product?
 
#20 ·
Ignorance breeds fear. I have spent my whole life keeping bees and there is nothing I am prouder of than the honey my bees produce. It is subject to rigorous inspection prior to purchase and packing. Who in the HECK is this johnny come lately at the FLEA MARKET and what is he doing demeaning my product?
I never used anything in my hives and don't plan on it. Maybe I should add that to my labels next year. Poison fee hives/poison free honey - or, toxin free
 
#22 ·
sorry guys

Sorry guys...

Honestly, Didnt mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

Pretty clearly there's an issue here. otherwise the tone wouldnt have gotten so shrill. I now know that now is not the time for this topic. I knew some feathers would fly when i named the thread. I just didnt think it would be tar and feathers...

My mistake: we're not going to be able to have an honest open discussion about this topic...at this time.:shhhh:

Again...apologies.

a chasened and humbled- matt
 
#31 ·
Sorry guys...

Honestly, Didnt mean to hurt anyone's feelings.Feelings? This really has nothing to do with feelings. :no: Believe it or not, you did a good thing bring it up. Sorry, you just happen to become the pigeon we are using for target practice. ;)

Pretty clearly there's an issue here. otherwise the tone wouldnt have gotten so shrill. I now know that now is not the time for this topic. I knew some feathers would fly when i named the thread. I just didnt think it would be tar and feathers... I don't think there is a time set for this. It is always time. Besides, takes the focus off of politics. :shhhh:

[/COLOR]

- matt
Have a good weekend...
 
#24 ·
tom,

I always read your posts. So I was sorry that i managed to piss you off so quick. :doh:There's alot of different kinds of keepers. Understand , were sort of hippy out here on the coast- we discuss alternative energy and exchange granola recipes. and yes we talk about pesticide as "poison".

I have never pointed fingers at fellow bee keepers for their pest management practices. I may not agree with all their choices but I never said, "keeper Bob puts DDT in his hives- dont buy his honey"- nor would I ever say such a thing. I have said, in reply to a queery about the high price of my honey," WE use no treatments in OUR hives. We dont get as much honey because mites are killing our hives and we are breeding queen only from the survivors. That costs more. Your posts seem heartfelt and knowlegable. No offence was intended to you or your bussiness.

sincerly,
Matt
 
#25 ·
Matt,

If you don't use chems in your hives, How can you make the statement in your first post here that most of us do? (WE DON'T) And if you look at your post on page one and compare it with your post on page two It would appear that you contradict yourself.

I'm not mad but I can see why iddee is.

Hawk
 
#26 ·
...better get those glasses checked, Robert. Go back and re read it again.

I never said I used that stuff in my hives. Just because I dont use chems- doesnt mean I dont comunicate with those that do. Heck it all over ABJ and Bee Culture. We all learned that it was nessesary. Most of the beginner books have whole sections on "treating" with Apistan and checkmite and all the gear (nitrile gloves, respirators , etc ) that is required to handle it "safely".

Its more than a little disingenuous for you to pretend that alot keepers dont use it. Again re read all the responses on page 1 on this tread; you'll notice that people got all sheepish and sly about what they say to their customers.
 
#27 ·
Never said you did. My point was that saying "it is standard proceedure for most beekeepers to dose their hives with miticides and antibiotics at least once, twice a year- Mavrik., etc." Is a harsh and untrue accusation. I would understand it if you really believed it but if you don't use them yourself, then you probably know that it's a lie.

Hawk
 
#28 ·
Here we go

I am going to postulate that my bees are clean as a whistle in spite of SOME acaricidal treatment, one that was once approved but now is UNAPPROVED!!!

MY colonies are like, completely normal, strong, brooding in late Sept. do youknow what that means? These are he best bees I have seenin YEARS...

Is there anyone whose LIVING DEPENDS ON IT who cares to comment?
 
#30 ·
boy matt you sure seemed to have touched on some freyed nerves here... may I assume??? you enjoy playing with hornets nest in your time away from beesource.

it make one suspect that there is one or two here that would really rather not face the moral paradox which you described (and seem to be thinking about at some level).

the difference I see is that some of us sell our honey... 1)face to face, to local folks that could well be our neighbor.... others 2) sell their honey in 55 gallon drums with no idea of who or where the honey is eventually consumed.

mr laury writes:
Is there anyone whose LIVING DEPENDS ON IT who cares to comment?

tecumseh: except for feeding my soul the bees are unessential for my life.

this however seems to be a strange question from someone who admits using unapproved products in their hives and who also insist that their product is untainted and pure.

a curious but somewhat distorted view...yes?
 
#33 ·
Matt,

You keep referring to commercial beeks who treat their hives with poison, who are these guys because I know most of the commercial beeks in Colorado and a few from other states and none of them treat as you have suggested.

and just because some of us don't sit around eating granola doesn't mean we treat our hives with chemicals. I eat meat and potatoes and care for my hives using the most natural ways known. I think what has got most people here shaking their heads is the assumptions you made and to date have posted nothing to back up what you put in your first post.

I suspect that you tell the public about poisoning of hives by commercial beeks just to boost your sales at the farmers market. If this is the case you are doing a dis-service to the whole beekeeping industry and worse, lying to make a few extra bucks.
 
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