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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    mendocino county N Calif
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    34

    Default R U ready to get mad?

    When fielding questions at farmers markets and presentations-
    Ive noticed that John Q. Public doesnt seem to realize that it is standard proceedure for most beekeepers to dose their hives with miticides and antibiotics at least once, twice a year- Mavrik., etc.

    They are vaugely aware that the bees are in some kind of trouble but... When I let it slip once or twice that most keepers poison their hives, I noticed that people were really shocked that "natural, raw honey" comes from hives where the bees were dosed with pesticides .

    ok get ready... here it comes...

    SINCERE YET RHETORICAL NAive question ALERT!...

    Do we, as beekeepers have any responsibility to inform the public about possible toxic exposure from what has been marketed as pure and natural- for decades?

    Have our practices helped to perpetuate the decline of the honeybees and decieved the public?

    Matt

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    morehead city, nc, usa
    Posts
    378

    Default

    You let this information slip while you are selling honey at the farmer's market? SMMOOOOTH! Personally, I don't put ANYTHING in my hives but bees. Our honey is as pure as the air we breathe and the water we drink.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Snowmass, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    2,497

    Default

    No offense Matt, but it appears that you don't know too much about honey production.

    One, I don't know of one commercial beek that threats their hives with honey supers on.

    Second you statement "When I let it slip once or twice that most keepers poison their hives" is absolutely false. Since when is treating any type of livestock and yes bees are considered livestock "poisoning them? Do you poison your child when you give them an antibiotic? Do you poison them when getting them vaccinated?

    Third, when you buy a pound of beef does it list all the antibiotics, vaccinations, growth hormones, and the feed they were fed, to include what pesticides and and other chemicals were used on those crops? No it doesn't.

    I suggest you stick with telling people what is in your own hives and not tainting the beekeeping industry with sensational half truths and assumptions.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,317

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alpha6 View Post
    I suggest you stick with telling people what is in your own hives and not tainting the beekeeping industry with sensational half truths and assumptions.
    The truth is, some chemicals used by beekeepers ARE toxic to bees. Surely you're aware the effect coumaphos is having on bees and comb, especially queens? There is no debate about this. The only area of debate is purity of honey, and everyone would have to have their honey tested to know how pure their honey really is.
    Regards, Barry

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Damascus, Maryland
    Posts
    376

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    The truth is, some chemicals used by beekeepers ARE toxic to bees. Surely you're aware the effect coumaphos is having on bees and comb, especially queens? There is no debate about this. The only area of debate is purity of honey, and everyone would have to have their honey tested to know how pure their honey really is.

    Barry,

    My honey God bless her is sure pure. Just thinking of all the CRAP she has to do to put up with me stinks:}:}



    Okgotogonow:}
    "Life without God is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point."

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,317

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alpha6 View Post
    No offense Matt, but it appears that you don't know too much about hoThird, when you buy a pound of beef does it list all the antibiotics, vaccinations, growth hormones, and the feed they were fed, to include what pesticides and and other chemicals were used on those crops? No it doesn't.
    Too bad. It should. In fact, I will buy chicken from a seller that goes out of their way to inform me that antibiotics were not used, etc. This is what I buy:
    http://www.millerpoultry.com/about.php
    Regards, Barry

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Limestone Co, Alabama
    Posts
    1,674

    Default I don't want to rain on your parade, but!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I will buy chicken from a seller that goes out of their way to inform me that antibiotics were not used, etc. This is what I buy:
    http://www.millerpoultry.com/about.php
    First things first, 99.9% to the tenth power of all poultry antibiotics are administered in the chickens' drinking water not in the chickens' feed so Miller's claim and your belief are only technically correct.

    Second thing, the animal protein requirement for growing healthy chickens is high and complex. I have seen chickens almost kill each other over such treasures as fresh cow patties, baby rats, mice, dead skunks, and live snakes up to about 18 inches long. You will have difficulty raising 10% of your baby chicks on vegan chicken feed unless cannibalism is high. (Read the post about chickens keeping wax moths in check)

    Third thing, this ad is an elaborate bed bug letter, except Miller used the fact that the Old Order Amish don't use electricity to hook you on a vision. They do however use small diesel engines (no spark plugs) and leather mill belts to pull ventilation fans, and propane, LNG, natural gas, coal, or wood to fire the brooders. The Observant Mennonites here use similar devices, and also use them to power their sewing machines, water pumps, and sawmills, MP2T.

    Forth thing, Miller I assume is a member of the National Poultry Improvement Program. It is required in order to be in the Interstate poultry business. They at a minimum must vaccinate, and test to be allowed to ship their eggs to the hatchery, their baby chicks to the growing houses, and their fryer/broilers to slaughter or market.

    Think of it as a Federal government AFB free certificate needed every time a bee leaves or returns to the hive. Then again they can buy hatching eggs with Kryptonite in them and still make the same claim, as long as the hatching egg was laid by a NPIP hen and contains only NPIP rooster spermatozoa.

    This said, let's all go back to those trilling days of yesteryear, if it makes you feel good, do it.
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,317

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapfe View Post
    First things first,

    Second thing,

    Third thing,

    Forth thing,
    Lot's of speculation here with no facts given in regards to Miller.
    What is a fact is that there is a hi/low range within any ag product when it comes to traces of drugs and chemicals. I'm looking to consume from the low end.
    Regards, Barry

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Limestone Co, Alabama
    Posts
    1,674

    Default Don't **** on me and tell me its raining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    ...I will buy chicken from a seller that goes out of their way to inform me that antibiotics were not used, etc. This is what I buy:
    http://www.millerpoultry.com/about.php
    After viewing this sight I would like to make some pertinent observations.

    Observation number one: All poultry antibiotics to the power of ten are administrated to poultry in their drinking water. Your poultry supplier is only technically correct in saying they don't put antibiotics in their chickens' food.

    Observation number two: The animal protein requirement for a growing chickens is high, we're dealing with a modern T-Rex here. You will not raise many chickens on vegan chicken feed unless cannibalism is rampant, This is from my and my families involvement in commercial chicken farming, and operating our own processing plant and broiler houses just like Miller. Later we went into layers, same thing applies. When I raised chickens as a hobby, I saw "free" range chickens eat live snakes 18 inches long. I saw them devour dead skunks, scent and all. What they do to baby mice and rats is right out of Jurassic Park. A hen with chicks will follow a bovine around for hours waiting for the cow to poop. Miller telling us a chicken can thrive without animal by products don't make it so.

    Observation number three: The idea of Old Order Amish farmers caring for chickens is bucolic and romantic. However, the chicken houses Miller Poultry described in their ad is the same description of any modern chicken house, except that the Amish don't use electricity. The Amish do use small Diesel engines (no spark plugs) to pull belt and pulley systems driving exhaust fans, water pumps, air compressors, sewing machines. The Mennonites here use the same devices. Remember, the Amish are a break away sect of the Mennonites. Miller has their customers hooked on a fairy tail of the customers' own making.

    Observation number four: There is something in the poultry industry called the National Poultry Improvement Program (NPIP). You must participate in NPIP to ship poultry or eggs in Interstate Commerce. Under NPIP you must test, and or vaccinate for certain poultry diseases. How can Miller ship their eggs to the hatchery, their chicks to the Amish, their fryers to slaughter, and their broilers to you without NPIP approval?

    Observation number five: Miller never said where their hatching eggs came from, they can come from a hatching egg farm that feeds Kryptonite to their breeders as long as the eggs are laid by a NPIP hen and contain only NPIP certified rooster spermatozoa.
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Fresno California USA
    Posts
    2,479

    Default Ah Scrapfe

    Thank you for the dose of reality.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,317

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapfe View Post
    Don't **** on me and tell me its raining
    Excuse me?

    Observation number one [snip] five
    What is a fact is that there is a hi/low range within any ag product when it comes to traces of drugs and chemicals. I'm looking to consume from the low end.
    Regards, Barry

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Damascus, Maryland
    Posts
    376

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peletier View Post
    Our honey is as pure as the air we breathe and the water we drink.
    I get it:}:}
    "Life without God is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point."

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    276

    Default

    I second Alpha`s response.
    Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss you`ll be among the stars!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,317

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mendocino queen honey View Post
    Do we, as beekeepers have any responsibility to inform the public about possible toxic exposure from what has been marketed as pure and natural- for decades?
    There is a mindset with some that it doesn't really matter what goes into the hive in way of treatments and drugs as long as the honey stays "pure." Some claim to test their honey and the USDA standards they go by are the same ones that keep being readjusted up to allow more parts in honey.

    I know it's a touchy issue, but for me personally, I let my customers know that I do not put anything into my hives that the bees do not bring in themselves. No, I don't open feed either. I will not claim that my honey is more pure than . . .
    Regards, Barry

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Farmington, North Carolina
    Posts
    255

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I know it's a touchy issue, but for me personally, I let my customers know that I do not put anything into my hives that the bees do not bring in themselves. No, I don't open feed either. I will not claim that my honey is more pure than . . .
    Agreed. Greg and I don't use chemicals on our hives either. We did at one time, but quit over ten years ago.

    Susan

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    mt. airy, surry county, nc
    Posts
    217

    Default

    do ya'll consider anything put in the hive s to be un-natural? like essential oils?
    "Any fool can learn, the trick is to understand - Einstein"

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Aberdeen, Idaho
    Posts
    413

    Default If not chemicals what?

    What are you beeks that are not putting anything in your hives using to control the pests and problems? I have used fluvalinate and coumaphos to control mites, fumidil for nosema and tylan for foul brood. I have a hard time believing that some of you or as someone said most of you are not using any chemicals or treatments in your hives.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Lake Park, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    155

    Default You take care of your stuff

    I treat my bees with any thing I can to get rid of the problems I have. Just as anyone would treat their livestock cows, chickens, pigs, or any thing else they have. I can not and will not rebuild the amount of hives and investment we lose by my not caring for my bees. Have you thought of the replacement cost a commercial beekeeper would suffer by not treating our hives with the approved methods. I know all the hobbyist that micro manage a few hives can suffer that loss and rebuild but not us pros but they treat their bees too. And yes we do sell in bulk so labeling isn't a big issue there. When it's sold around my place it's in 55 gallon barrels. So then I wonder how many hives some commercial people may have because I have never sat at a farmers market selling honey and probably in all my time haven't bottled more that 2 barrels in one year of honey to give most of that away.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Farmington, North Carolina
    Posts
    255

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    do ya'll consider anything put in the hive s to be un-natural? like essential oils?
    Papa Bear, I'm not sure who you were directing that question to, but at this time (and for over 10 years) we have not put any treatments on our hives. I think each person has to decide for themselves what is acceptable to put in the hive and what is not. We will continue to avoid treating our hives for as long as possible.

    Susan

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Venango/Crawford Pennsylvania
    Posts
    1,709

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mendocino queen honey View Post
    Ive noticed that John Q. Public doesnt seem to realize that it is standard proceedure for most beekeepers to dose their hives with miticides and antibiotics at least once, twice a year- Mavrik., etc.

    They are vaugely aware that the bees are in some kind of trouble but... When I let it slip once or twice that most keepers poison their hives, I noticed that people were really shocked that "natural, raw honey" comes from hives where the bees were dosed with pesticides . I WOULD BE SHOCKED TOO!

    Do we, as beekeepers have any responsibility to inform the public about possible toxic exposure from what has been marketed as pure and natural- for decades?
    Matt
    I must be "John Q. Public", because I didn't know we would even THINK such a thing, let alone do it.
    http://www.beesource.com/news/article/adeefined.htm

    Matt, I am not sure who your beekeeper mentor was, but I would dump everything you were taught and start over. Find someone new that knows what they are doing. Or if you want, start asking questions in here more. There are so many smarter minds than mine, in here, that will give you more guidance than you could ask for.

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