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  1. #41
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Fresno California USA
    Posts
    2,496

    Default 4 frame minimum

    Ahhh, that looks good!

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,121

    Default

    How many that go to the almonds are feeding pollen sub now?? Anybody?

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,196

    Default

    A new article by your friend:

    http://beesource.com/pov/traynor/pnpdec2008.htm
    Regards, Barry

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,121

    Big Grin

    Thanks for sharing Barry,

    Maybe I can shed this (pollen sub fool) image. lol

  5. #45
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    4,648

    Default My bees don't agree....

    "Both beekeepers and researchers now believe that proper nutrition is one of the best defenses against CCD."

    My bees here in San Mateo Suburban Honeybee Heaven fly daily, have several big wintertime pollen and honey flows going year round, and I have suffered 50% loses during winter for several years (after getting Austrailian queens). It is not nutrition related here.

    My bees are on trailers with enclosed sides, surrounded by asphalt, so my dead bees don't disappear in the grass. I see huge piles of dying bees, mostly young bees with deformed wings. After rains they stumble out by the hundreds. If my bees were not in a winter honey wonderland, these die offs would finish the hives, and does slowly kill off some, leaving some powerhouses untouched (new starts). I don't feel that the colonies "collapse", or "disappear" or fly away, I think they just dwindle off fast and the commercial beekeepers don't see it clearly because the dead bees are hidden by grass.

    I seem to have had a lot of losses during summer and fall this year. Some hives that had been powerhouses for years, (150 lbs. of crop in June, gone and robbed out in Sept.) and surprisingly, some strong feral swarms.


  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,121

    Lightbulb

    Odfrank, Try rereading Barry's post.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Fresno California USA
    Posts
    2,496

    Default Valley bees

    Joe makes some valid points as usual but there are sources of fall pollen here. Small drops say 48 colonies in a location with fresh water and autumn bloom can do just fine. In my experience, summer pollination or staying in irrigated ( sprayed ) crops are the things to avoid if you want better strength for almonds.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NE Calif.
    Posts
    2,271

    Default

    We feed most hives in Sept and October with sub.Some yards traditionally have a good mix of fall pollen and will be good to go on their own.
    Then starting again in early January ALL get fed sub while going through and checking hives.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    College Station, Texas
    Posts
    6,985

    Default

    odfrank writes:
    My bees here in San Mateo Suburban Honeybee Heaven fly daily, have several big wintertime pollen and honey flows going year round, and I have suffered 50% loses during winter for several years (after getting Austrailian queens). It is not nutrition related here.

    tecumseh:
    unless you trapped a bit of pollen continously and had this analysized you can never be absolutely certain the QUALITY of the pollen that the bees might collect.

    the report on pollen from australia (can't remember the article's name... fatbee/skinny bee or something like that???) was a bit 'oh wow' for me when you scanned thru the table (spread sheet) of the analysis on various pollens. some sources were not much better than cardboard as a protein source.

    question for keith...
    did you perhaps have you pollen supplement/substitute (I am not certain how you might classify your own product?) analysized for amino acid content?

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,121

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tecumseh View Post
    question for keith...
    did you perhaps have you pollen supplement/substitute (I am not certain how you might classify your own product?) analysized for amino acid content?
    Big T, thats a good question.

    YES, I have had it analysized for the full break down of amino acid profile.

    Also big T, I use four different protein sources in my sub so to get a well balanced amino acid profile this also goes with the fatty acids as well. It's just like bee pollen, the more diverse the better.
    Last edited by Keith Jarrett; 01-02-2009 at 03:17 PM.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    4,648

    Default

    [quote=tecumseh;379924]unless you trapped a bit of pollen continuously and had this analyzed you can never be absolutely certain the QUALITY of the pollen that the bees might collect. some sources were not much better than cardboard as a protein source.

    I have kept bees here for 39 years. My bees thrived until the mites came around. Are you proposing that the nutritional qualities of the local pollen coincidentally deteriorated at the same time CCD showed up and is the cause?

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Lycoming New York
    Posts
    194

    Default

    Think I understand?? I read the Australia report on pollen. Cardboard would have been better. Some of the pollen will keep the bees going with no stress but with stress of the little critters just not enough food. As far as pollen subs. ck them out it is buyer beware . When you find a good pollen sub. please post We only have 4 months that they can collect pollen a nice pollen sub would help me a lot. Thanks Tony

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Davis,South Dakota,USA
    Posts
    402

    Default

    CCd ya that is what it is.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    4,648

    Default Austrailian article

    Any links to this Australian pollen article?

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    College Station, Texas
    Posts
    6,985

    Default

    keith writes:
    I use four different protein sources

    tecumseh:
    may I assume that the same lab did the amino acid analysis?

    yep... look like your daddy taught you well in regards to animal nutrition, amino acids and the more the merrier regime of things.

    you know keith (this is a question) I have been making up a bit of my own pollen supplement and I don't think I would be so opposed to buy some similar product from a commercial source if I had some idea of how much of the cheapest ingredient (sugar or hfcs) was included in the price???? I hate the idea of thinking I am buying a caddy and drinve about in just another darned old chevy.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,121

    Thumbs Up

    Quote Originally Posted by tecumseh View Post
    tecumseh:
    may I assume that the same lab did the amino acid analysis?
    .
    Big T, www.silliker.com does mine, they do a excellent job and they have locations all over the U.S. & world.

    It doesn't cost that much to have your sub done and it will let you know where to make improvments on your receipe.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    El Dorado County, CA
    Posts
    606

    Default

    tecumpseh says:
    you know keith (this is a question) I have been making up a bit of my own pollen supplement and I don't think I would be so opposed to buy some similar product from a commercial source if I had some idea of how much of the cheapest ingredient (sugar or hfcs) was included in the price???? I hate the idea of thinking I am buying a caddy and drinve about in just another darned old chevy.[/QUOTE]

    stoneguarder says:
    i'm in agreement with not wanting to pay a high price for sugar. i have the same concern about buying water in premade patties. if i had to guess i'd say at least half the weight of one of my patties is the sugar water i added.
    all that is gold does not glitter

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,121

    Big Grin

    Quote Originally Posted by stangardener View Post
    stoneguarder says:
    i'm in agreement with not wanting to pay a high price for sugar. i have the same concern about buying water in premade patties. if i had to guess i'd say at least half the weight of one of my patties is the sugar water i added.

    I would say your correct 50/50 or very close. But remember, some Items cost 3-4 dollars per pound that goes into sub.

    I had one other note, do you spell it Stangarener or Stoneguarder

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Swalwell, AB
    Posts
    581

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tecumseh View Post
    odfrank writes:
    My bees here in San Mateo Suburban Honeybee Heaven fly daily, have several big wintertime pollen and honey flows going year round, and I have suffered 50% loses during winter for several years (after getting Austrailian queens). It is not nutrition related here.
    Frank Eishen presented a study a year or two ago showing that the Australian bees he was observing -- as I recall -- collected a much more diverse selection of pollen than the US stocks in the same apiary. Perhaps they are getting something that your previous bees did not collect?
    Last edited by Allen Dick; 01-15-2009 at 08:57 AM.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Swalwell, AB
    Posts
    581

    Default

    you know keith (this is a question) I have been making up a bit of my own pollen supplement and I don't think I would be so opposed to buy some similar product from a commercial source if I had some idea of how much of the cheapest ingredient (sugar or hfcs) was included in the price???? I hate the idea of thinking I am buying a caddy and drinve about in just another darned old chevy.
    i'm in agreement with not wanting to pay a high price for sugar. i have the same concern about buying water in premade patties. if i had to guess i'd say at least half the weight of one of my patties is the sugar water i added.
    There are a number of considerations when considering buying commercial patties.

    Generally, if buying from a big, established supplier, and direct from the factory, you can assume that they have sourced the freshest possible ingredients and that you are getting the product direct from production. Fresh is important. They also make their money partially by buying in bulk and saving on freight and handling, plus mechanization, so the cost to a beekeeper is often less than making them at home, if all the travel, set-up, management, wasteage, etc. are considered. Moreover, it is possible to obtain the exact amount needed, with nothing left over. Leftover material deteriorates if not used within a few months.

    On the other hand, with some suppliers, you really have no clear idea what goes into the patties, and you are staking your crop on the belief that they are not using an ingredient that the FDA would not like or which might break down into something that could get your crop condemned. I am suspicious of any company that uses secret ingredients or will not reveal the ingredients. You have a right to know what you are feeding IMO.

    As for paying for sugar and water, that annoys most of us, but sometimes the other efficiencies, convenience, and lack of wasteage compensate. If time is worth nothing and the bees don't require attention, and your time is not more valuable as a beekeeper than as a laborer, then making patties can make sense.

    Moreover, the format of some commercial patties is such that you could apply them wearing a business suit and not get messy. These patties can be moved around on the top bars, too, so you can move them from hive to hive or to one side when checking queens, and we all know that feeding patties is a great diagnostic. Hives that eat are OK. Hives that don't need attention.

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