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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Jacksonville, North Carolina
    Posts
    15

    Default Medication Out the Door

    I have two 8 frame garden hives with two brood boxes on each. I treated both hives with Apiguard 12 days ago. The instruction say to replace the tray with a new one after two weeks, and leave the second tray in till it is gone or you are ready to put honey frames on. Today there was a puddle of goup on the ground by by one of the hives. Sure enough it was the Apiguard medication paty minus the tray. The tray was inserted on the top of the hive. This means that the bees took the medication out of the tray, down through two brood boxes, and out the entrance (using an entrance reducer). The medication paty appeared to be mostly intact. These bees don't like this stuff. Should I go ahead and replace with a new tray of medication as the label says?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Port Orchard, WA USA
    Posts
    208

    Default

    I think that's how its supposed to work. As the bees move the goop out of the hive, it spreads the thymol around to where the mites are.

    I treated my hives with this a couple of days ago, and they've been bearding like crazy....

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Sacramento,California,USA
    Posts
    3,872

    Default

    I've used Apiguard and the bees didn't like it and it caused shot brood and queens quit laying and I swore I'd never use it again. I know some people use it but I stopped all useage of it and of ApiLife Var also, which is the same thing in a wafer instead of in a goop.

    I now use screen bottom boards with powdered sugar dusting using a flour sifter over the top bars and brushing it down between frames, takes short time to do it and the bees have done much better this year.

    This is what I do because of my dissatisfation from using any of the mainline beek industry recommended treatments, and I've had good results.

    You may have different results yourself, I just outlined what I do incase you might be interested yourself.

    I'm sure there are many out there that dissagree with my way of treating, I've been lashed out at for recommending it in the past but it's my choice and I'm not saying anyone has to do it. I'm just mentioning it so it's known there are options other than strong treatments that are recommended in the media.
    “When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world.” – John Muir

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Mt. Washington,KY
    Posts
    146

    Default

    I read in the Beesource Mag. about a beekeeper using the powder sugar method for treating varroa. I checked my hives and found one that had over 100 count for one day. I use Screen bottom board open year round. I started on a Monday using a cup of powder sugar per deep (2 1/2 in my case) using a screen to shake it over the top deep body and bee brush to scatter between frames. Never took hive apart!!! Took about 10 min. each time. Did this every Monday for 4 weeks and went back to check with sticky board on the following Thurs.and found NO mites. Hive is doing fine. By the way, I did this after taking 75 lbs of honey from this hive. You don't have to use chemicals to control mites. Pembroke

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Sawyer, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,115

    Default

    Like Randy Oliver writes in his articles in American Bee Journal, there are no silver bullets. You have to use brass knuckles. Intragrated Pest Management is the key.

    Methods I use are Formic Acid in Mite Away II in spring and fall prior to and after surplus supers are on the hives, Powered Sugar dusting during the nectar flow months. And Screen bottom boards year around. I have also use Sucrocide but feel that Sugar dusting is easier cheaper and just as affective.
    The Busy Bee teaches two lessons: One is not to be idle and the other is not to get stung.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Dane County, WI.
    Posts
    3,721

    Default

    "This means that the bees took the medication out of tray, down through two brood boxes, and out the entrance [using entrance reducer] The medication paty appeared to be mostly intact". -Andy Webb.

    You mean the medication 'paty' was 'intact',...on the ground in a,..puddle??

    That's really hard for me to believe; I suppose it's possible. OB.

    I noticed that your average temperatures have been around 85-88 degrees for the last 3 weeks or so; 88 F. also for next week and a few 90's; that's seems pretty HOT for treating in my opinion. [and an entrance reducer??] Why are you treating now? Of course I don't live in the Carolinas, but I won't be treating until 1-2 weeks from now in the Midwest; it will be cooler then.

    I don't know about ,...."these bees don't like this stuff",..'my dissatisfaction from using any of the mainline beek industry recommended [horror chemicals -OB.] treatments". I haven't used formic acid. I have used Apiguard with good results; ...NO goup,... puddles,....of 'medication' that I have seen,so far.

    With only two 8 frame 'garden hives' with two brood boxes each, you certainly CAN, and should use the sugar dusting method.
    Last edited by Oldbee; 08-30-2008 at 08:04 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Sacramento,California,USA
    Posts
    3,872

    Default

    Formic Acid treatments inhibit the fermentation of pollen which is needed in order for the bees to properly digest said pollen....

    http://www.beeuntoothers.com/NoBeeIsAnIsland.pdf

    Just my opinion based on personal research, the insecticides and herbicides in the agriculturaly industry, as well as the miticides recommended and used in the beekeeping industry, is what is causing alot of the problems we are now having with our keeping of bees.
    “When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world.” – John Muir

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    65

    Default

    How do you apply the powdered sugar? Does it control mites?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Sacramento,California,USA
    Posts
    3,872

    Default

    I use a flour sifter to dust the top bars and a brush to brush the powder sideways so it falls down between the frames. I use 1/2 cup sugar per each deep hive box. This only works if you have screened bottom boards without a stickyboard, or I don't use a sticky board. I want everything including mites to fall thru to the ground. I dust once a month unless I see signs of infestations getting bad, in which case I dust once a week for a month.
    “When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world.” – John Muir

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Pepperell, MA.
    Posts
    3,779

    Default

    I used sugar quite a bit last year. One hive, although responding to the sugar well, still spiraled up in counts. That hive got Apiguard II. Interestingly, that was the hive that I tested drone frames in as well for mite control. It's also my strongest hive this year with three supers on it that I'll be pulling this weekend. Integrated management is better than single treatments nearly all of the time, in my opinion but you still have to recognize that each hive is a separate community and will need an objective assessment.
    "My wife always wanted girls. Just not thousands and thousands of them......"

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
    Posts
    2,963

    Default Too much medication?

    It strikes me that using medication intended for use in 10 frame boxes in 8 frame boxes could result in too high a dosage. Does the manufacturer speak to this point? FWIW I used Apiguard during our summer dearth and didn't see any problems - I haven't done any post treatment mite counts.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Sawyer, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,115

    Default

    RayMarler:

    Interesting reading, who are these people? I’m going to have to disagree with their findings, by my own observation and the over two decades of use in Europe and Canada. I wouldn’t be so pompous as to say I have heard it all but this is the first and only time I have read of this kind of results.
    The Busy Bee teaches two lessons: One is not to be idle and the other is not to get stung.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Jacksonville, North Carolina
    Posts
    15

    Default

    Just found this on the Apiguard web site. It does explain my orginal post.

    Contact: Worker bees climb into the Apiguard® tray and begin to remove the gel, as a hive cleaning behavior. The gel adheres to the bees’ body hairs and as the bees run through the hive, they distribute the product to the colony. The gel that the worker is carrying is eventually thrown out through the hive entrance, but the trail it leaves behind on its journey through the brood nest remains until it too is cleaned.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Cameron, MO
    Posts
    586

    Default

    Regarding the powdered sugar application. Is that 1/2 cup "per deep" or per colony(2-3 deeps tall)?
    I have put my "pam" sprayed bottom board in earlier today and will look tonight for any mites but thought I might add the powdered sugar method into my hive maintenance.
    So how much powdered sugar per 2-3 deep hive?
    Thank you for your reply!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Pepperell, MA.
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    3,779

    Default

    I use about 1/2 cup per deep. I really don't measure so much as cover the frames and brush down.
    "My wife always wanted girls. Just not thousands and thousands of them......"

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Auger Hole, MN
    Posts
    433

    Default the reccomended

    50 gram dose sold in hobby trays is too much for most colonies.

    even the mfgr reccomends a 25 gram dose for one deep of bees.

    temp is an issue too as Oldbee noted. an entrance reducer with a 50 gram dose in high 80's is asking for trouble IMO.

    the most obvious question though is what is your mite count? do you even need to treat?

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