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Questions for the pros.

6K views 29 replies 11 participants last post by  justin 
#1 ·
I am new beekeeper as of this spring and have some questions I'am having a hard time finding answers to. I have four hives all started from 5 frame nucs late this spring located in southern Minnesota. I feed them 1:1 until they had seven of the ten frames in the second deep drawn out. This was over a month ago. At first they work hard on the supers until about two weeks ago progress seemed to slow with much less activity in the supers. I figured this was a dearth but found that hard to believe with all the clover blooming in the ditch. After checking my hives yesterday I found out that thing were not at a standstill. The second deeps were almost completely filled with capped honey. Only a very small portion of the center most frames were being used to raise brood. Another thing I noticed was the honey is very light in color, it looked similar to when i was feeding 1:1 but with a slight tint of yellow.

My questions are as fallows:

What conclusions can I draw about the seasonal progression of my bees? Is there focus now storing for winter? If this is the case at what point will they shift focus back to the honey supers? We have another full month or so of weather in the 70s and 80s, is it bad they decreased the size of the brood nest so early?

Is having light colored honey desirable? What plants are capable of producing the nectar required to make such honey? Tall white clover is blooming now, could this be it?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.
 
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#2 ·
Until the pros step in I'll opine :). Any honey is great whatever color, and clover is a light-colored honey. The first thing to be sure of is that this isn't stored syrup! It's very easy to do especially when feeding to draw out foundation on a new colony, and it's common for the broodnest of a new beek's fed colony to become syrup-bound. Bees are ALWAYS looking towards the winter. They evolved to store store and store, and they don't really understand that we want the stuff over that upper deep.

If it is honey, you could scratch it open and see if they'll move it upwards. Or save those deep frames; put in foundation for them to keep drawing and give them back those full deep frames for overwintering on.

As great as a first-season harvest is, sometimes it's a better choice to let the girls keep their first year's efforts for overwintering. Your goal right now (with fall a couple brood cycles away) should be with an eye towards strong broodrearing. The bees that are being raised now will be the first of the nurse bees for your overwintering bees, and those bees need to be raised by lots of strong nurse bees with good brood food glands. The winter bees need to survive for months with strength to rear spring bees at the end of the race, and how they're fed as larvae is a big part of that equation.

I'd try to open up that broodnest and get her laying well again. Scratch those stores open and see if they'll move it upstairs, or even better extract some of those deep frames and feed it back come fall.
 
#3 ·
Is having light colored honey desirable? What plants are capable of producing the nectar required to make such honey?

A very subjective question....in my experience, to most consumers light honey is prized however to me the lighter the honey the "milder" the flavor...in other words we prefer darker honey for personal use like alfalfa :D.
The lightest honey I ever pulled was Black Locust honey which is rare indeed in Okla.
 
#4 ·
Andrew Are all four hives doing the same thing ? It may be possible that the hives are in the process of superceding the queens ? Although I am not sure if all four of them would do so at the same time. You said that there was brood in the second super,m is it capped ? Do you find swarm cells located at the bottoms of the frames ? If so dont remove them or you could have them swarm and end up with queenless hives. When hives prepare to swarm they tend to back fill the cells so the queen stops laying. Do you hive supers on the hives ?
At some point in the season the queen should start focusing on raisng brood for winter as well as storing honey for winter.
As for the honey depending on how long you fed them sugar water some of it could be sugar water but having a yellowish tint makes me believe that they have found some sumack nectar. If it was basswood it would be lighter in color.
Also goldenrod is yellow but i dont think there is any in bloom at least not in my part of NY too early.
Not sure I have answered any of your questions with my questions but I would check for swarm cells and if you dont have supers on put some on ...Rick
 
#5 ·
Since I don't have any more large frames to replace some of the honey bound frames I was wondering if I could place a small super with new undrawn foundations between the two brood boxes. This would give them additional room to expand brood without the mess of extracting, feeding back etc. I don't think this would break up the brood nest much considering it is nearly nonexistent in the upper deeps. I would then leave them in this arrangement throughout the winter. I have a feeling if I replaced the frames as you suggested they would just refill them with honey. They seem pretty hell bent on doing that, since all four of my hives are acting in the same manner. I really want to do what’s best for my bees but spending more money on equipment this year is not in the cards. What is my best option?
 
#6 ·
Yes all four hives are behaving in the same manner. I have not thoroughly inspected the bottom boxes because I in all hives the bees became extremely mad when I started pulling frames from these boxes. However, the frames I did pull seemed to be normal with no queen cells. Should I due a full suit inspection to see what’s going on down there. I am hesitant; I am still enjoying the fact that I haven't been stung yet. Normally very gentile bees can work them in shorts and a T-shirt with no problems.
 
#10 ·
Thanks for the hard time guys. I'm sure I will be stung multiple times when I go investigate the lower deeps today. What should I do to free up room for brood? I really want my hives to survie the winter. Will my plan to add a med super between the deeps work or not?

Thanks for the help!
 
#12 ·
I wouldnt do a frame by frame inspection rather just separate the upper from the lower and slide it backwards an inch or so and tip it up to look at all the bottoms of the top hive frames. Use some smoke and a jacket if ya got one. Also it lets ya see how much brood is there from the bottom of the top hive...Rick
 
#13 ·
In the top brood boxes there is very little capped brood (15% of the inner two to three frames), no eggs, some nectar, and the rest of the box is capped honey. Same story in all four hives. I guess my only option at this time is to scrape open thier reserves in the top deep in hopes they will move it up as earlier suggested. Any suggestions on how to do this as I don't have the proper tool for the job. Thank you all for helping me in my time of need. Next year I will be far better prepared for events such as this!
 
#15 ·
Thanks. If the sun ever comes out today I will give it a try. How many frames should I scrape? And how much of each frame? How long will it take to move this honey being they only build comb in the honey supers as they need it? Should I be adding more supers as well?
 
#17 ·
That was kinda what I was thinking. Scraping open comb seems counter productive. Not to mention angry bees and a mess. Since all four hives are behaving in the same manner I figure they must know what they are doing. Even though it may be a mistake, I will let them do their thing. If they don't survive the winter I will consider it a lesson learned.
 
#19 ·
super use

I have seen bees not us the top super very much if you have a cover that is not very thick it gets to hot up in the top if they are in full sun.

just a thought may not be the problem also I have seen a honey flow so heavy as the brood hatches they place nectar in the cells

one year check my hives and found no larva or eggs and very little sealed brood
 
#20 ·
I do have a thick cover, coated with galvanized steel. The hives are in full sun all day. However, I don't have any ventilation holes in any of my supers. The temperature has been in the mid to upper 80s for some time now. Would you suggest giving them some added ventilation? What is the best way to do this?
 
#21 ·
Well if you don't have a screened bottom board, put a couple twigs under two corners of the telescoping cover so it lets warmer air chimney out the top a little bit. Or use/make an Imrie shim. Or use a top entrance.

And sure, the bees do know what they're doing. But please consider: their knowledge is based on having developed their hoarding behaviors WAY before we beekeepers were feeding gallons of sugar syrup to them right inside their house :D.
 
#22 ·
Thanks for the advice Ben; I will make some ventilation adjustments tomorrow. You make a very good point. Feeding could influence the natural storing tendencies of the bees. However, when I stopped feeding there was very little capped "sugar honey" only 10% of the center four frames, the lower half these frames were brood. The remaining frames were freshly drawn comb with some sugar water in them. At this point I stopped feeding and placed a honey supers on top. None of my hives moved up into the supers immediately. First they topped every frame in the upper brood box with capped honey. They then expanded the brood chamber to occupy 60% of the center six fames, using a small area under the capped honey and the outer four frames for nectar. It took each hive about two weeks from the time I stopped feeding to have the upper boxes in this configuration. At this point they started moving up and drawing comb in the honey supers. Over the next week the primary focus was the honey supers. The following week they decressed focus on the honey supers and began backfilling the brood nest with honey. I assume a majority of the brood hatched during this time freeing up space.

What I don't understand is how could me feeding each hive about a gallon and a half of 1:1 over a month and a half this spring affect their decision to back fill the brood nest now? It's not like I feed them utill honey bound. I feed them enough to draw comb and raise healthy bees.
 
#23 ·
If that's the case they probably just don't have enough supers drawn to keep them from backfilling the brood area when you had a strong flow, so they just need to read some beekeeping books to get on the same page with us :). It's a bummer, because the poor queen had to shut down for a while. One of the risks of different box sizes and queen excluders (I'm assuming you use one or she could lay in the drawn but empty supers).
 
#25 ·
Thanks for the input guys; I really appreciate all the advice. I think you are right Ben; it was all a timing issue. The odd thing is, I don't use queen excluders. However, at the time of the flow there was a well defined honey line at the top of the frames. Which I have read can deter a queen from laying above it.

I also agree with you Tom. I think at this point in my beekeeping endeavor far more knowledge can be obtained by observing my bees than trying to manipulate them. I am starting to understand that beekeeping is by no means an exact science. What works for one person will not necessarily work for another. This being said I have decided to take a more passive role in managing my hives. Who am I to try and defy millions of years of instinctual behavior.

Tom, you are right. The bees are smarter than me!
 
#27 ·
Sounds like your flow has run short, your queen has settled into the bottom, and the bees decided to fill the second instead of filling the super ( which I assume it is foundation aswell)
If your going to make the hives fill out the supers, you have got to have the hives booming right on the start of the flow, and watch out for swarms.

Nearing the end of the flow, they will focus thier energy to where it pays off the most, in this case, smaller hive, smaller brood nest, second full of honey.

Extract the seconds, send it back to them over excluders. have them fill the seconds again on the alfalfa, and then feed them up as singles to winter indoors.
If your wintering outside, id either leave them the full super for food and forget feeding, or pull 1/2 the frames, extract them, and feed them up with surip.
One thing to consider, is there any surip in those frames? How much of it was being used up to excellerate the nest? Usually the hives tend to store some away while being fed, but if you had stopped feeding before the flow, they probably used it up.
 
#28 ·
The funny thing is the two hives that were booming at the beginning of the flow are now my weakest hives. One of them swarmed today. Today I also discovered that the hives that were slow to start are now working overtime filling their supers. I had to add a second to each today. Any suggestion as to what to do with this swarm I just finished capturing? They are currently being housed in two medium supers with undrawn foundation stacked on top of each other for lack of a better option. I would think one of my four hives could benefit from them some how.

Any suggestions anyone?
 
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