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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
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    Randolph County, Indiana
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    694

    Default 21 cells, then 2 cells

    On June 30th I grafted into my cups and put them in my cell builder. They started 21 queen cells from my graft. I checked on them on day four after my graft and there were still 21 cells. I opened them up today and noticed that there were now 2 cells. The remainder had been aborted. It looked like the bees cut them open and removed the queens inside, as it appeared that the caps had been cut open. I looked for a virgin to see if that could have caused it, but to no avail. There is no virgin, or any queen in this hive because the larva was grafted from 1 day old larva, and the cell builder had no larva when I grafted, just young nurse bees. What would cause them to abort all those queen cells?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Sacramento,California,USA
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    3,604

    Sad

    That's a bum deal there indiana, sorry to hear that story.

    I've got no conjectures as to the cause, hopefully you find an answer.
    “When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world.” – John Muir

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
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    Seattle, Washington State
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    Default

    It happens but I am not sure why. Maybe the bees know something we do not know.
    Chef Isaac..Culinary Arts and Honey are a sweet mix! http://www.sweetascanbeehoneyfarm.com & http://www.adoptahive.info

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
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    Randolph County, Indiana
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    Default

    Ya, I agree that they know the reason, and it was probably for a good reason. I hope I can find out why and maybe aviod that problem in the future. I even had lots and lots of nurse bees just overflowing. Fed them, gave them pollen. BTW, does pollen spoil?

    I was really hoping to requeen some hives with this batch. Think I will instead just give them a cell, and make a cell builder from another hive. Maybe that will solve the problem.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Nicosia, Cyprus
    Posts
    96

    Default 21 cells and then 2

    This problem is caused by coumaphos residues in the hive. Levels of below even 100PPM can cause this problem.
    Best regards
    Oly

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Seattle, Washington State
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    Default

    Indi: Yes, pollen doe spoil.
    Chef Isaac..Culinary Arts and Honey are a sweet mix! http://www.sweetascanbeehoneyfarm.com & http://www.adoptahive.info

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Brookings, Oregon USA
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    245

    Default

    *****
    Last edited by golddust-twins; 08-14-2008 at 10:27 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Randolph County, Indiana
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    Default

    That is a fluvalinate right? I've only treated these hives with Apiguard, which is Thymol.

  9. #9

    Default

    This may help-

    From 2008 Resolutions of the American Beekeeping Federation, Inc.

    CR11. PESTICIDE REGISTRATION PROCESS (2003)

    WHEREAS, pesticides applied to crops and range land continue to adversely affect the health and viability of honey bees and other pollinators; and,
    WHEREAS, the U.S. EPA requires pesticide registrants to submit data pertaining to adult bee toxicity as part of the pesticide registration process; and,
    WHEREAS, honey bee brood damage or death, decreased queen and/or drone viability, diminished learning ability and other problems have all been linked to certain pesticides; now,
    THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the ABF urge EPA to consider brood damage and other sub-lethal effects, as well as toxicity to adult bees as requirements of the pesticide registration process.

    Then I found this-

    http://www.beesource.com/bee-l/bioar...2001/msg12.htm

    This is also helpful-

    http://www.google.com/search?rls=ig&...phos+residues+

    Scroll down to- [PDF] Acaricide residues in honey, beeswax and propolis
    Last edited by gingerbee; 07-09-2008 at 01:03 PM.
    Try to learn something new every day and give thanks for all your blessings.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Brookings, Oregon USA
    Posts
    245

    Default

    gingerbee http://www.alp.admin.ch/.../8ull6Du3...DZz8mMps2gpKfo is coming up the webpage cannot be found.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Brookings, Oregon USA
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    245

    Default

    Thanks for the edit gingerbee.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lewisberry, Pa, usa
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    6,080

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by golddust-twins View Post
    >This problem is caused by coumaphos residues in the hive. Levels of below even 100PPM can cause this problem.


    Could this be the reason the three nucs I purchased in May have requeened themselves twice?
    Absolutely. I have some rather big boys in my area that are commercial operators, use lots of chemicals, and sell off their comb in nucs. Makes you go Hmmmm....

    The best one is a guy who sell nucs and I know he has had major problems with AFB in the past. But to hear him tell it, "I have AFB free hives". Now since this guy treats fall and spring, anyone want to guess what may happen when that unsuspecting new beekeeper gets one of those nucs and fails to continue this regiment? Yes, he has not had an inspection come up with AFB for several years, but I would not touch his stuff if it were free.


    Maryann Frazier commented that to test a wax sample costs about $210. They do not have a lot of money since they are testing many CCD samples. But she did say that anyone wanting a top of the line analysis of what in their wax, that she could do it for half price ($105). I thought that it would be interesting to pool some donation together and have the wax samples of the big commercial suppliers tested. I wonder what some nuc producers would show if this was done.

    Makes you go Hmmmmmmmmm.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Brookings, Oregon USA
    Posts
    245

    Default

    *****
    Last edited by golddust-twins; 08-14-2008 at 10:28 AM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Randolph County, Indiana
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    694

    Default

    I really don't think that is the case here. Like I said, I only use Thymol, and this is fairly new comb. No fluvalinates would have had the chance to build up, because I don't use them.

    And just because a hive requeens more than once, does not mean that its a chemical issue, so I don't think it would be wise to assume that the issue. Chances are the queen was just not mated well for some reason. I would buy a new queen for that hive, or give them a young mated queen from another hive in another location and let them raise a new queen.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lewisberry, Pa, usa
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    Default

    Not sure about the rest, but my reply was aimed at golddust, and an open question. But the information and possibilities are something for "everyone' to consider and ponder when buying nucs.

    Yes, supersedure is not ALWAYS an indication of chemicals, but we now have research that shows that chemicals do indeed cause supersedure, effects queen viability, size, and longevity among other things. And these are chemicals that are for beekeepers, used by beekeepers, and promoted within the industry.

    Know the breeder/nuc producer who you purchase bees from. Good advice for everyone.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Brookings, Oregon USA
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    245

    Default

    Thanks for the advice BjornBee.

    Corinne

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lk Stevens, WA
    Posts
    158

    Default

    I have had the exact same problem with the worker bees tearing down cells that were capped. I think it may have something to do with the cell finisher hive not being strong enough with ample bees and pollen available. I do not use any chemical treatments, and collect my own wax and turn it into foundation that I make myself.

    Were the cells a bit smaller than normal? Those are the ones I see getting torn down.

    All the best,
    Scott

  18. #18

    Thumbs down

    Bjorn,

    I would say possibly, not absolutely, unless you are a scientist with empirical evidence. It seems to me you are running down commercial beekeeps with 'absolutes' also. How do you know if the chemical in harmful levels are these in nucs? Or even if they have or are susceptible to AFB?

    I don't use chemicals in my hives but I don't run down others who do or blame them for problems that may not be their fault.
    Last edited by gingerbee; 07-14-2008 at 04:50 PM. Reason: spelling
    Try to learn something new every day and give thanks for all your blessings.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lewisberry, Pa, usa
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    6,080

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gingerbee View Post
    Bjorn,

    I would say possibly, not absolutely, unless you are a scientist with empirical evidence. It seems to me you are running down commercial beekeeps with 'absolutes' also. How do you know that's why they use these in nucs?

    You give a thumbs down before you ask a question, a question that may enlighten, and a question that is a good one to ask.

    I HAVE seen much of what I talk about. From first hand experience as a state bee inspector. I have inspected some of these people I mention. I have seen what they place in hives. I have seen the results and inspection reports.

    Talk bad about commercial beekeepers. Me? Um......probably. For years, it was a nice little racket of illegal chemical use, discussions behind closed doors, and a nice little group of close mouth lip types. Mention anything bad and you were loudly shouted down. And although I can not, and will not as a professional myself, pinpoint where and to whom I speak, I have seen all the "stuff" I speak of.

    I know of at least two commercial operators, one who has had major AFB, and the other who touts his ability to get 30 years of use out of his comb and also cry the blues about CCD, all the while selling off this crap to any new beekeeper seeking bees by way of nicely packaged nucs.

    Anybody willing to open their eyes, and of course anyone not willing too, are smacked in the face by report after report of chemical contamination and problems of CCD by these very same people I mention.

    If mentioning of my personal feeling and knowledge, and an open warning to potential beekeepers is heeded by one other, then fine, give me the thumbs down, as it matters little to you. But your questioning things I feel you know nothing about. And my willingness to open up this can of worms from time to time only speaks of the truth of what i have seen first hand.

    I'll say again, Know who you are buying from. And also know that some of these nucs from the so-called commercial professionals are some of the worst crap on the market.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Seattle, Washington State
    Posts
    4,398

    Default

    Bjorn has a good point when he says know who you are buying from. Also, Jim Fisher once wrote a post on questions to ask your person of choice that you want to buy queens from.

    This make a lot of since. However, I would add to Bjorns comments that not everyone will know a lot of the answers to. Many of the people I talked with at on operation, the person answering the phones, did not know what they treated with.
    Chef Isaac..Culinary Arts and Honey are a sweet mix! http://www.sweetascanbeehoneyfarm.com & http://www.adoptahive.info

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