wild weekend

[jeff123fish]

Well i've been keeping bees for about 5 years now. Never had a problem with stings until this week end. While dealing with a real nasty hive a bee got under my veil and stung me in the throat right at about the jugular!

I knew right away that this sting was not going to be very good so i closed up the hive and got down (I keep this hive on my roof to keep it away from the bears). sure enough within about five or ten minutes sweat just sort ofstarted pouring off of my face and i started to feel dizzy. i called my wife who was on her way home anyway and told her to hurry cause i wasn't feeling very well about ten minutes into our phone conversation i collapsed. she got home within minutes and i was already getting back up but the ambulance was already called and they were soon there too. after i had convinced them that i was alright and feeling much better they left but said that if i had a hard time breathing or had any rashes to call them back so they could check me out again. Well they weren't gone more than ten minutes when i broke out into a rash that covered the entire upper half of my body. the ambulance got back to my house and took one look at my stomach and said "this time you don't have a choice your going to the hospital". they gave me a IV with benidryl and a small dose of epi on the way to the hospital. at the hospital they put into my IV predisone and made me stay there till 2:00 am before they would release me.

Well me being me the next morning i just had to get back on the horse and get back into my hives to i did (this time taking all sorts of precations). Well today i got lightly stung through my gloves on the knuckle. Besides my panic and nervousness nothing bad happened at all. What i want to ask the forum is has anyone else had a reaction like mine only once or am i done beekeeping and just got lucky today.

sorry for the long post but i wanted to give as much detail as i could so you all could understand the back ground



-jeff

[alpha6]

I would say that you had a systemic reaction.

"Systemic reactions, ... were generalized reactions occurring within a few minutes of a sting. Mildest symptoms were flushing of the skin, followed by an itchy nettle-rash and more serious included chest wheeze, nausea, vomiting, abdominal pains, palpitations and faintness.

You can get good info about the different reactions to stings here:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/aa159

Glad you got back to your bees...

[peletier]

I usually get a fairly dramatic LOCAL reaction to stings.....swelling for 3 or 4 days, itching, etc. But a few weeks ago I got nailed on the wrist and in ten minutes my FACE was so swelled up I couldn't speak. Very unpleasant and scarey . I really dreaded being stung again ...didn't know what would happen.
But the severity of a reaction seems to depend on where you get stung, who does the stinging, your current blood pressure, the barometric pressure, how many clouds overhead, and who knows what else. Since that one bad experience I have had several stings which ranged from swelling and itching to no reaction at all.

[jeff123fish]

Alpha6 that article was very interesting still what i am wondering is seeing how i've apperantly suffered a systemic reaction am i most likley to go thru this again if say i get hit again or is it more of a freak occurance


-jeff

[jeff123fish]

sorry double post

[alpha6]

Jeff,

Bee Myths

Myth: After your first bee sting reaction, future bee stings double and triple in severity.
Fact: In many research studies, repeated stings over time actually have a lesser reaction not an increased one.

Myth: Elderly individuals are more susceptible to a severe reaction than middle-aged.
Fact: The older one gets, the body's histamine production is less. Subsequently, the allergic reaction is less. This is not to say that an anaphylactic reaction cannot occur, although it is rare.

Myth: Bees can see and sting in the dark.
Fact: This is partially true, bees can sting in the dark as a stimulus response reaction. However, they cannot see in the dark. If being chased by a swarm of bees during the day, you can decrease their intensity by running to a dark garage or a darkened area of a forest.

Myth: A severe anaphylactic reaction will usually occur in the first 5 to 10 minutes after being stung.
Fact: Most anaphylactic reactions do occur in the first 15 to 30 minutes. 60% occur in the first hour, and the remaining occur in the next 3 to 4 hours. If there is not a severe reaction in 5 hours, the chances are very good that one will not occur.

http://www.surviveoutdoors.com/refer...asps/index.asp

I would say it was where you got stung that caused the reaction. It appears that even after a systemic reaction it doesn't mean that you will have this reaction again and most likely your body is building antibodies to lessen the severity the next time.

One thing to note is that the poison is an acid, therefore, a base should neutralize it. The problem is a bee injects it and in order to counter this you have to really get something into the wound quickly. It will still cause a reaction, but it can be lessened some. I keep denatured ethyl alcohol close when working the hives or when people are near my hives. Remove the stinger and pour the alcohol onto the sting, pressing it in if you can. It seems to help but it must be done asap. Waiting five to ten seconds and it won't have an effect. Hope this helps.

[dmacmtb]

Another remedy typically available at home is benadryl. Won't cure a severe case of anaphalatic shock but can delay onset of shock and also reduce symptons of less severe reactions to stings.

Even for folks who carry epi pens, taking a beny at the onset of a reaction is a good idea. Epi passes through the system pretty quickly so your body can start reacting again in 20 - 30 minutes. A dose of beny can last several hours and help delay or keep the body from relapsing.

dmacmtb

[Budster]

I need to start carrying my cell phone to my "remote" beeyard. I always work my hives alone, and the hives are about a mile from any house! Sure does make a man think. I do carry allergy tablets at all times in my bee box though.

[alpha6]

Dmac is right. Benadryl is good to have on hand. The epi pens are good, but come in two doses one for adults .3mg and one for a child .15mg. If you have kids that visit your hive you should have the child size on hand. An adult size could cause cardiac arrest in a child.

Maybe a good thing to be suited up when working alone in out fields...though I don't follow this advice either.

[Bodo]

One thing to note is that the poison is an acid, therefore, a base should neutralize it. The problem is a bee injects it and in order to counter this you have to really get something into the wound quickly. It will still cause a reaction, but it can be lessened some. I keep denatured ethyl alcohol close when working the hives or when people are near my hives. Remove the stinger and pour the alcohol onto the sting, pressing it in if you can. It seems to help but it must be done asap. Waiting five to ten seconds and it won't have an effect. Hope this helps.

Not to pick nits, but ethyl alcohol (aka ethanol, aka booze) isn't much of a base. It denatures proteins well which is what's helping here. Apitoxin (bee venom) is a mix of several proteins.

[ScadsOBees]

Myth: Bees can see and sting in the dark.

Hey, I like nit picking too! Bees can still smell in the dark. I don't think that I'd run into a dark area that I couldn't easily get out of a different way than I came in if being chased by bees.

[hankdog1]

Oddly enough i even carry Benadryl out into the woods with me in case of a posionus snake bite. It won't stop the reaction to the posion but it will block it long enough for you to get some help. Just figured i'd chime in with another good use for it. Liquid is the best as your body will absorb it quicker.

[Dr.Wax]

If the sting was directly on your jugular the venom could have entered your bloodstream directly - sending it rapidly throughout your body. I am not saying that is what happened- just that it is a possibility and could account for the severity of that particular sting. Maybe this is one of those rare cases but best to take precautions anyway.

[alpha6]

Many traditional remedies have been suggested for bee stings including damp pastes of tobacco, salt, baking soda, meat tenderizer, toothpaste, clay, urine, aspirin or even application of copper coins.[5][6]

Bee venom is acidic and these interventions are often recommended to neutralize the venom; however, neutralizing a sting is unlikely to be effective as the venom is injected under the skin and deep into the tissues, where a topically applied alkali is unable to reach, so neutralization is unlikely to occur.

It is acidic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bee_sting

In the science world, many acids are first neutralized using ethyl alcohol .

"The acid was first neutralized in the laboratory with the aid of a solvent (ethyl alcohol) under optimum conditions:"

If you discount the science, I have used it and it appears to work...given you get in on in time.

[Bodo]

Listen, I never said that it wasn't acidic. All I stated was that EtOH isn't a strong base and that it's denaturing the proteins. That's what's stopping the venom.

Funny how you want science to back you up now ;-)

[alpha6]

What's funny how I posted info to back up my stuff and you don't.

[Bodo]

OK then

We need to understand exactly what bee venom is. It is indeed acidic, as your Wikipedia article states. But how acidic? A wikipedia article on bee venom states that it is ~5pH. Fairly acidic...
EtOH isn't strong enough to nutralize something that acidic. Here's why:

First of all you need to understand what a weak acid/base and how that's different than a strong acid/base.

http://www.shodor.org/unchem/basic/ab/

Just so we're keeping everything on a level field, we're talking about aqueous mixtures. Pure EtOH can't have a pH reading by definition. So that being understood, EtOH won't be (MUCH) more basic than pure water if in a water/EtOH solution.

Once we know how acids/bases work and a little about titrations you'll see that a weak base can't neutralize a strong acid; all you'll really be doing is dilution.

Now that we know that we're not neutralizing the acidic properties of bee venom, we need to look at what else EtOH is doing. Bee venom (apitoxin) is composed of many things I stole this from Wikipedia:

The main component is melittin comprising 52% of venom peptides.[2] Melittin is a strong anti-inflammatory agent and induces the production of cortisol in the body. It is also a cell-lytic.

Apamin increases cortisol production in the adrenal gland. Apamin is a mild neurotoxin.

Adolapin, comprising 2-5% of the peptides, acts as an anti-inflammatory and analgesic because it blocks cyclooxygenase.

Phospholipase A2 comprises 10-12% of peptides and it is the most destructive component of apitoxin. It is an enzyme which degrades the phospholipids which cellular membranes are made of. It also causes decreased blood pressure and inhibits blood coagulation. Phospholipase A2 activates arachidonic acid which is metabolized in the cyclooxygenase-cycle to form prostaglandins. Prostaglandins regulate the body's inflammatory response. The toxin from wasps contains phospholipase A1.
Hyaluronidase comprising 1-3% of peptides dilates the capillaries causing the spread of inflammation.

Histamine comprising 0.5-2% and is involved in the allergic response.

Dopamine and noradrenaline which comprise 1-2% increase pulse rate.

Protease-inhibitors comprise 2% and act as anti-inflammatory agents and stop bleeding.

Most of these are proteins. Protiens need to be in a specific conformation to work:

http://employees.csbsju.edu/hjakubow...tandconfo.html

Proteins are exposed to an aqueous environment (excepting those that are largely embedded in membranes). Thus, amino acids on the surfaces of the protein are compatible with the polar aqueous environment. In contrast, interior regions of proteins are often hydrophobic. Alcohol disrupts the hydrogen bonding between the water and the surface polar residues, favoring exposure of the more hydrophobic residues normally buried inside. This conformational change is referred to as denaturation.

I know that I didn't cite every fact that i posted in here, but it's all available in good Introductory Chemistry and Organic Chemistry textbooks.

[jasontatro]

If the sting was directly on your jugular the venom could have entered your bloodstream directly

If you've got bees with stingers long enough to puncture your jugular, I'd say get out of beekeeping. I think I'm safe in saying that is impossible.

JT

[Jeffzhear]

If you've got bees with stingers long enough to puncture your jugular, I'd say get out of beekeeping. I think I'm safe in saying that is impossible.

JT

That made me laugh! TY

[Dr.Wax]

If you've got bees with stingers long enough to puncture your jugular, I'd say get out of beekeeping. I think I'm safe in saying that is impossible.

Actually, many blood vessels are not nearly as far from the surface of the skin as one might imagine.

The jugular vein "is located near the skin surface and often is less than 1.5 cm from the skin surface".

http://www.wheelessonline.com/ortho/8527

Just look at the greenish-blue color of your own veins visible right through the skin to get an idea of how thin that covering actually is.

If a bee can sting through thick gloves they should have little problem stinging directly into a blood vessel if they got lucky.

Do I think it is likely? No.

Do I think it is possible? I see no reason why not.