small cell question

[julesbeek]

I'm the first beekeeper in our area to use small cell for beekeeping without chemicals (I've done it for 7, going on 8 years now). My beekeeping teacher is really trying to research all alternatives to the chemical treadmill (he's pretty good about not recommending harsher ones, thankfully and refuses to use coumaphos or recommend it at all), and he's researching small cell since he knows I use it. He asked me a question the other day that I do not know the total answer to. I'm hoping someone here can answer the questions, so I can get back to him.

"What about drones? Don't the bees ignore some of the small cell foundation (as they do on the regular stuff) and make drone cells of their own choosing? Then are not most of the mites
raised in these drone cells? Even with 5.4 the mites can just barely reproduce themselves in worker cells and prefer not to use them. So what difference does it make what size the worker cells are?
It's an obvious question and I'm sure there is an answer, but I have not seen it yet on bush/lusby sites."

I told him that yes, the bees do build drone cells (I personally trim about an inch off a full sheet of foundation, so the bees can make drones there, but they also just do their own thing).

Anyone have an answer that I can give to him?

Thanks!
Julia
p.s. I've always been under the assumption that the REASON 4.9 works so well is because the mites can't reproduce as easily as they can on 5.4. I hadn't heard that they have trouble producing on worker cells in large cell...

[buckbee]

IMO small cell is just another way of telling bees that we know what is best for them.
If you let them build their own comb, they will build a range of cell sizes according to their own needs, from as small at 4.6mm, sometimes to 6mm or more. Suppressing their need to build drone cells by using uniform foundation of any size is unnatural and leads to unbalanced populations.
I know that does not directly answer your question, but I think the underlying issue also needs to be addressed.

[beemandan]

Amen, buckbee.

[Barry]

I told him that yes, the bees do build drone cells (I personally trim about an inch off a full sheet of foundation, so the bees can make drones there, but they also just do their own thing).

http://www.beesource.com/bee-l/bioar...002/msg117.htm
http://www.beesource.com/bee-l/bioar...002/msg118.htm
http://www.beesource.com/bee-l/bioar...002/msg144.htm

[julesbeek]

I appreciate the suggestion to let the bees build what they want, and I plan on doing that in some of my hives. But rather than veer off into THAT discussion, I wondered if anyone out there (Michael? Others using small cell?) could answer my original question.

i.e.: if the varroa has trouble reproducing on worker bees even in conventionally sized foundation (5.4), how is it that the small cell makes them better at managing varroa (as has been shown by Michael Bush and Lusbys)?

Just trying to give a coherent answer without resubbing to the Organic Beekeeping list which got too overwhelming...

thanks,
julesbeek

[Barry]

I don't believe anyone knows for sure the answer to your question. We see a change in bee behavior when the cell size is reduced. It appears to trigger hygienic behavior such as the chewing out of infected pupa. One can only speculate from observations.

[naturebee]

--"What about drones? Don't the bees ignore some of the small cell foundation (as they do on the regular stuff) and make drone cells of their own choosing? (julesbeek)

Yes they do!

--Then are not most of the mites raised in these drone cells? (julesbeek)

Yes they are!

--Even with 5.4 the mites can just barely reproduce themselves in worker cells and prefer not to use them. So what difference does it make what size the worker cells are? (julesbeek)

A good question!

The difference is in the late summer and fall when varroa need to enter worker cells to reproduce. Small cell sizes are devastating to varroa at this time, and cause great stress to them by severely limiting the numbers of varroa that survive on through till spring. Varroa that do reproduce in smaller worker cells are undernourished, which shortents their life span needed to survive till spring. Where in large cell colonies, varroa reproduce fine in worker cells and well fed, last in larger numbers till spring. .

It’s all about the numbers of varroa you start with in a colony during the beginning of the season that determines the colonies fate.

Joe
Feralbeeproject.com

[Michael Bush]

Joe covered this pretty well already. But I'll take a stab at it.

>What about drones? Don't the bees ignore some of the small cell foundation (as they do on the regular stuff) and make drone cells of their own choosing?

Bees will always do this no matter what you use for foundation.

> Then are not most of the mites
raised in these drone cells?

In the spring when there are a lot of drone cells, yes. It seems like drone cells vary greatly in size, but many of the small cell drone cells are smaller than the large cell drone cells, which I assume has some effect on the number of mites that manage to reproduce.

> Even with 5.4 the mites can just barely reproduce themselves in worker cells and prefer not to use them.

I wouldn't say "just barely". They seem to do pretty well in the fall.

> So what difference does it make what size the worker cells are?

Ignoring the more hygienic behavior that is generally observed in small cell, there is still much of the year where more of the mites reproducing are coming from worker cells. The other issue is that if the mites are less attracted to worker cells you have healthier workers which results in a healthier hive and a better density of workers to clean out mite infested brood.

I'm sure none of us knows for sure all the mechanisms involved.