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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    owensboro,ky
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    2,240

    Smile jim fisher

    for the first time ever i am tempted to quote an entire reply, but barry might ban me. seriously, jim's reply is exactly why i don't answere very many as he has not only completely read my mind he has stated what are my opinions much clearer and concisely than i could. plus he has described ME in part of it . thanks,jim
    "Wine is a constant proof that God loves us and loves to see us happy" Ben Franklin

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,317

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    I am probably going against the majority, but I would leave the darn thing alone in the first deep and "fix" it in the second deep.
    That would be my suggestion also. I wouldn't risk damaging the first few combs by trying to reposition them. The risk is too great. That is, unless you have other hives you can pull resources from should you damage the comb in the process.
    Regards, Barry

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Greenville, TX, USA
    Posts
    4,328

    Default

    I dropped a swarm on a box of empty frames last week. I just checked them. They have 4 lovely newly drawn frames right down the center. I don't bother to level my hives other than by eyeball.

    "Everything works if you let it" by someone smart on this site

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tonasket, WA USA
    Posts
    141

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Fantastic, another newbie faithfully listening to the advice given on this site to ignore the modern advances in beekeeping made over the last 150 years. Less competition in the honey market for me..... HURRAY!!!!
    Just out of curiosity Frank, would those be the modern advances that are causing losses of 80% or more all over the industrialized world? Just asking.

    PS Barry, I quoted Frank because folks would have to go back 3 pages to find what I was referring to.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    4,803

    Default Dumb or dumber???

    Are you saying that foundationless hives are NOT dying? Are you blaming the bee die-off on foundation and the Langstroth hive? Should we all go back to skeps and topbar hives? If you can prove to me that will keep my bees from dieing I will convert back as fast as I can. I lost over 50% this year using those **** modern techniques.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Massillon, Ohio
    Posts
    3,380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    I lost over 50% this year using those **** modern techniques.
    Which "modern techniques"?
    To everything there is a season....

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    4,803

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    Which "modern techniques"?
    Using foundation - you have to follow the thread from the beginning.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Wake County, NC, USA
    Posts
    39

    Default Jim Fischer reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Fischer View Post

    "I guess my stance is that the central issue is one of "husbandry" of
    the very very old-skool style, the 18th Century old-skool. One
    has an obligation to one's livestock. This includes giving them every
    advantage possible, using "best practices" to assure that they thrive
    rather than merely survive. "
    I have to say that I agree. The Langstroth system, with foundation etc. worked very well from its introduction and popularization until roughly 20 years ago. What changed? Well, trade with all sorts of places that were eager for the dollar, but not so much for our regulations. To blame everything on the "modern" beekeeping methods is wrongheaded. In finding our way out of these "problems" the only approach that will work in the long run is to conservatively experiment by changing only one thing at a time, rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Most of the small cell, or natural cell or whatever that I have seen is based largely on anecdotal evidence, and not on well documented experimentation with controls for the other variables. On the other hand, nothing breeds success like success!

    Wade

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Greensboro, N.C.
    Posts
    5,080

    Default

    No, I wasn't trying to be a troll or even be mean.

    If my son wanted to be a race car driver, I would first teach him to drive on the road and in normal traffic. I would not start him in a full blown race the first time he ever took the wheel.

    Jak, according to his past posts, just got his first bees. I think he should be using the simpler, tried and true methods before trying the more complicated methods.

    This part of his post also prompted part of my reply. >>>(ran out of money).<<<

    I sincerely feel he will lose his bees this year and possibly lose the will to keep bees because of it. I don't want to lose a new beek or the bees because of such a small expense.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Greenville, TX, USA
    Posts
    4,328

    Default

    Foundation, or lack of it, never killed a bee in my opinion. Likewise, starting bees on foundation is no guarantee, or even a benefit, to getting them to draw straight. We get far more rookies wanting to know why their bees are making a mess of plastic than anything else.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Massillon, Ohio
    Posts
    3,380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Using foundation - you have to follow the thread from the beginning.
    I have been... and I guess I'm just dense. :confused: I don't get it.

    You've had over 50% losses using foundation. Personally, that would be justification for me to consider trying something different and attempt to reduce that number. I'm sure there are many other factors besides comb type that are contributing to your losses, but I would be looking for every edge possible. Dead-outs don't make any honey.

    You want proof.... have you set aside one of your yards and tried foundationless for a couple of years and compared loss percentages to your other yards?
    To everything there is a season....

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Greensboro, N.C.
    Posts
    5,080

    Default

    Simple question, Ross. Have you ever seen a hive die from rookie mistakes? Have you ever seen a hive die from too much disruption? Have you ever said "I wish I had known that before I acted"? Beekeeping or otherwise, have you ever seen anyone start an endeavor at too advanced a stage, then fail and quit because they weren't familiar with the basics? If he had 5 or 10 years experience keeping bees, I would not have discouraged him at all.

    Mike, I haven't had over 50% losses. I have had few losses since 2003. I use only wired wax foundation, but that's not my argument here. I say one should become familiar with the tried and true methods before going into the new and experimental, not only with bees, but with all things in life.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Massillon, Ohio
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    3,380

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    Quote Originally Posted by iddee View Post
    I say one should become familiar with the tried and true methods before going into the new and experimental, not only with bees, but with all things in life.
    I agree with you on this point Iddee. That is certainly the "safest" approach in any new endeavor one takes on. Cutting corners and moving too fast without some experience under your belt usually brings about frustration and sometimes failure. Not always, but more often than not.
    To everything there is a season....

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,379

    Default

    >I say one should become familiar with the tried and true methods before going into the new and experimental, not only with bees

    If the technique is 155 years old, it's not very new and not very experimental:

    "HOW TO SECURE STRAIGHT COMBS. "The full advantages of the movable comb principle is only secured by getting all the combs built true within the frames. Upon the first introduction of movable frames, bee-keepers frequently failed in this although much care and attention were given. Mr. Langstroth, for a time, used for guides strips of comb attached to the under side of the top bar of the frame. This is a very good practice when the comb can be had, as it usually secures the object besides giving the bees a start with worker comb. Next followed the triangular comb guide consisting of a triangular piece of wood tacked to the under side of the top bar, leaving a sharp corner projecting downwards. This is a valuable aid and is now universally adopted." --FACTS IN BEE KEEPING by N.H. and H.A. King 1864, pg. 97

    "If some of the full frames are moved, and empty ones placed between them, as soon as the bees begin to build powerfully, there need be no guide combs on the empty frames, and still the work will be executed with the most beautiful regularity." --The Hive and the Honeybee by Rev. L.L. Langstroth 1853, pg. 227
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Greensboro, N.C.
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    5,080

    Default

    >>>>If the technique is 155 years old, it's not very new and not very experimental:<<<<

    >>>Upon the first introduction of movable frames, bee-keepers frequently failed in this although much care and attention were given.<<<

    Thank You, Michael, that's exactly what I have been trying to say.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Greenville, TX, USA
    Posts
    4,328

    Default

    Gee, It didn't seem that hard to me when I started doing it my second year. Just read Michael's pages and followed along. It isn't rocket science. Bees seem to do quite well in hollow trees and house eaves without foundation. Most of their combs are dead straight too.

    Lighten up people. There is typically more than one way to skin any cat, and most of them will work. It always surprises me when the old hats on this site speak with total authority inspite of several others that are doing it different and succeeding. I wonder how foundation got invented. Gee, maybe someone tried something different and liked it. I made it through the winter with no losses. How about all of you?

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,379

    Default

    >>>Upon the first introduction of movable frames, bee-keepers frequently failed in this although much care and attention were given.<<<

    >Thank You, Michael, that's exactly what I have been trying to say.

    And the solution was arrived at 155 or more years ago...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,317

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iddee View Post
    Have you ever seen a hive die from too much disruption? Have you ever said "I wish I had known that before I acted"?
    No.
    Yes, but when given time, the bees usually fix/adjust to our actions.

    The first year I started beekeeping, I was in the hives all the time. Talk about disruption. The bees did fine and I learned so much. I always encourage beginners to not be afraid to stick your nose into the hive a lot and learn, observe.
    Regards, Barry

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,161

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Talk about disruption. .
    When a keepers blows smoke at the entrance of a hive to work, it take twenty four hour before that hive gets back to normal.
    FYI

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Davis,South Dakota,USA
    Posts
    401

    Default

    Depends on the fuel.

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