First cutout, and probably last

[Hobie]

What a disheartening experience. Yesterday I did a cut out from my barn wall. One colony or another had been in there for about 4-5 years. I found a cavity about 3' high x 4' wide x 8" deep full of comb. Big dark combs in the middle, empty. Newer combs on the right full of honey. About 3 newer combs on the left with bees. Tons of cross comb, and comb adhered flat to wall and tarpaper. Hard to cut out.

Long story short, I made a total mess of the whole thing. Tried out the new bee vac I built, and although the bees seemed to make it into the box gently, there was a very high loss rate. Too long of a hose, perhaps? I took out the comb where the bees were, and saw some larvae, no capped brood, and no eggs (but that means nothing because I can't see eggs.) Never saw the queen, and the bees' behavior did not indicate that I had gotten her with the vac, or that she managed to hide (no cluster of bees after a few hours.)

Put the combs where the bees were into frames in a box, even the "empty" ones in case there were eggs... about 2 frames worth. Put in some of their honey, filled rest of box with drawn comb. Set them up in the yard and put the bee-vac bees in. Went out later and there was a huge pile of dead bees on the bottom board. Some still clinging to the screen holes in the vac, trying to escape. No sign of life in the box.

Bottom line, although this was not a strong colony to begin with, I managed to kill them all and make their final hours a nightmare. I'm devastated. I don't think I will ever attempt another cut-out.

[Oldbee]

"I'm devastated. I don't think I will ever attempt another cut-out." -Hobie.

At least you must have gained some valuable experience and you were able to,..."practice" on your own barn. You know what they say about,...."if at first you don't succeed"? You never know; a neighbor or others may need to have bees removed and there is no one else to do it.

I have not done a cut-out.

[BjornBee]

I did two cut outs in my first couple years as a beekeeper. For Free! They were the most expensive bees I ever "bought" factoring in a labor and time over a couple days for each job. Never again.

I will not even consider doing a cutout from some-one's home without being paid. This of course is in conflict with some of the local clubs who feel we as beekeepers should provide this service as some sort of public relations point, and not charge anything.

So I leave it to the clubs to arrange the next "newbee' who gets all excited about going out over a weekend and spending many hours doing cutouts for free.

Funny thing is though, it seems hard to actually find someone willing to do this, as I get calls after the homeowner have called a dozen people through the clubs swarm list and seems nobody wants it when they find out its in a wall, two stories up, or behind the stone wall and the home owner wants no damage in getting them out.

What gets me laughing is when I find some beekeeper has been there before and used a cone method to capture the field bees, but did little to remedy the situation. The bees either continue and build back up after the so called beekeeper has left, another colony moves in, or the colony was plugged up with a hundred pounds of honey and thousands of dead rotting bees left in the wall for the homeowner to deal with later.

I don't do it for free. I don't cone trap bees. And if the homeowner does not want the job done correctly for a fee, I'm not getting in my truck.

Of course I'll be smiling as I hear the next new beekeeper at a bee meeting tell of his wild story as he spent the entire weekend doing some cutout.

[Chef Isaac]

Mike:

I am with you. Cut outs takes a lot of time. Great if you are retired. We have a guy in our bee club who is retired and he is booked all the time. He charges though which I totally think is fair.

When someone calls me to do a cut out, I give them three options: 1)call and exterminator. They are cheaper but they will not clean up the colony inside. Bees will die and rot. Honey will ferment and both will cause bugs and other pests to move in and the owner will be calling the exterminator back. 2) leave the colony where it is. The bees are providing free pollination. 3) Contact a beekeeper. They will charge, and rightfully so as it is hard work.

For me, cut outs, even when paid, are not really worth it. I only have one day a week that i can work on the bees or work in the shop so I do not want to take that one day doing a cut out.

Although I got tons of calls last year. The things I am affraid of is the homeowner suing me for "damage" to the house. I would like to learn for someone how to do cut outs properly. Maybe some day

You have learned some good lessons. I would get the vac adjusted. Maybe the sucking is too high.

[Ross]

The first words out of my mouth when someone calls is "$100 an hour" for cutouts. I'll pickup swarms for free if they are close by and easy to get to.

[peggjam]

The first words out of my mouth when someone calls is "$100 an hour" for cutouts. I'll pickup swarms for free if they are close by and easy to get to.

Me too...with a 3 hour minium...an I don't use a bee vac, even though I spent countless hours messing around building one.

[Gene Weitzel]

I too charge $100 per hour for cutouts. I use a bee vac and have very minimal loss. The key to the vac is to have a fairly long section (6-8 ft) of smaller 1" hose connected to at least 6 foot of larger hose like 2" which connects to the cage. You adjust the vac to where the bees "struggle" to get sucked up. When they hit the larger section of hose they slow way down and just kind of tumble into the cage. I also use about 12 foot of hose to connect the cage box to the shop vac which reduces the maximum suction available and keeps the noisy vacuum further away from the work area.

[Jeffzhear]

Live and learn...I will only do a cut out now for close friends and family or the price is right. Takes way too much time and effort for the payback. I would rather do more productive things with my beekeeping time.

[xC0000005]

Hobie, I always look at it as:
Odds of survival if left there (0 in most cases where the home owner is going to remove them) versus Odds of survival if I take them out (>0). Sounds like you had some equipment issues that resulted in a higher bee kill than we'd like. You did fine though. The colony, as you stated, was weak to start with. Natural nests are frankly sometimes a mess - that's why beesource doesn't keep plans on skeps and people advising you to build them. If they needed to move and you got them out then that's good enough. I pass on a lot of cut outs and let the bees dictate how I handle them. If they play nice, I do too. If they are painfully hot then we break out the bee vac and the comb can go in buckets.

Let the memory of the experience fade a bit and then decide if you want to do the next one. Make sure it pays what you want for your time and deal with the bees as their temperment indicates (but cut them some slack - you are, after all, tearing open their home).

[dcross]

Hobie, any chance we could see some pics of your vac?

[Hobie]

...and deal with the bees as their temperment indicates (but cut them some slack - you are, after all, tearing open their home).

That's part of the bummer. These bees were remarkably calm, given the situation. I only got a few head-butts, and my "stings" are only the result of them stinging my gloves and me leaning on the stingers later. So besides the fact that my hands itch like mad and my left forefinger is swollen up, I came out pretty well. Besides the shattered ego, that is.

Hobie, any chance we could see some pics of your vac?

Sure... It's an "iddee" design. I'll take a few pictures and post them. Should have taken some before it was all covered in bee poop and waxy hand-prints.

[WVbeekeeper]

Long story short, I made a total mess of the whole thing. Tried out the new bee vac I built, and although the bees seemed to make it into the box gently, there was a very high loss rate.

I don't use a bee vac. I don't wear gloves either. It's too hard to handle the comb with gloves and a bee vac kills too many bees. If you take your time you can cut the comb out with the bees on it and put it in a catch frame to be placed in a hive body. I did a small cutout yesterday. It took four hours. No gloves, no bee vac, no smoke, and only four stings. I would not have been stung at all if I would not have crushed the bees with my finger.

Bottom line, although this was not a strong colony to begin with, I managed to kill them all and make their final hours a nightmare. I'm devastated. I don't think I will ever attempt another cut-out.

Don't get discouraged. That was your first cutout. Though It may not have went as you wished you gained some valuable firsthand knowledge of what not to do. Better luck next time.

I charge by the job. I can get $50 plus (I live in an economically depressed area) from some people, but I do them on a case by case basis. I got paid $100 for the one I did yesterday. Which I feel was OK because I did get some nice bees from the cutout and they were in an easy spot.

[iddee]

How many doctors would we have if each one quit with their first patient death. Keep trying, and soon you will be saving 90% of them.

Does the hindsight tell you what you did wrong with the vac? It should not have killed a dozen bees if adjusted properly. If you don't know why it didn't work, I'll try to answer a few questions and see if we can eliminate the problem.

Sorry for the "life's obstacle", it'll go better with the next one.

[hummingberd]

Hobie-

Sorry for your frustrating experience. As you say it can be devastating especially if your expectations are high. Perhaps you could meet with another local beekeeper who is successful at doing cut outs. You could learn their "successful" methods.

Give it some time, and don't give up. You're heart is in the right place...

[Michael Bush]

I have two bee vacs that I never use. I don't like killing that many bees.

[Hobie]

I'm guessing I had the bee vac on too high. I had 13 ft of hose on the suction end. I only needed 10 ft, but all I had as an 8' and a 5' section. The extra travel time probably did not help. It was also hard to see how fast the bees were being sucked in because I couldn't be on the ladder and watching the box at the same time.

Turns out there are a few bees left in the new hive box. I'll probably leave them for a few days, them combine with another if they haven't absconded yet.

[Ross]

Always figure the bees are worth exactly $0 in any cutout and charge accordingly. Most have been sprayed with poision at the minimum. Use a vacuum if they are mean. If you get eggs, they can sometimes make a queen. Other times they'll just abscond.

[peggjam]

I'm guessing I had the bee vac on too high. I had 13 ft of hose on the suction end. I only needed 10 ft, but all I had as an 8' and a 5' section. The extra travel time probably did not help. It was also hard to see how fast the bees were being sucked in because I couldn't be on the ladder and watching the box at the same time.

Turns out there are a few bees left in the new hive box. I'll probably leave them for a few days, them combine with another if they haven't absconded yet.

One way to minimize damage to the bees is to put a carpet in the catch cage to cushion the landing. I did that with mine, and tried it out on a few workers hanging around the shop, and it seemed to work well.

[livetrappingbymatt]

First it's too early in NY to do a cut out.Wait until the dandelions bloom.Never suck bees off wet comb.Open hive wait until bees clean up spilled honey.
The bees aren't worth much but BROOD IS!
Brood and eggs can be used too boost weak hives,produce queens.
$100.00 per hr about right add for high bees, falls hurt.
average cut out 4 hr + time to install in hive.

bob Evans

[Hobie]

Here' a few photos of the bee vac:

back side:


front side:


bottom with sliding tray open:


It's a great design. Set it on top of a hive box, slide out tray, and viola!