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Thread: 1rst Round

  1. #61
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    Yeesh!! Guess I'l take my 1.25 cent's with me. Good luck.

    "I" just had a problem with the priming of queen cell's cup's with honey one day to selling "extra" queen's 13 day's later. My fault, what was I thinking??
    Last edited by Brandy; 04-16-2008 at 01:56 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandy View Post
    Yeesh!! Guess I'l take my 1.25 cent's with me. Good luck.

    "I" just had a problem with the priming of queen cell's cup's with honey one day to selling "extra" queen's 13 day's later. My fault, what was I thinking??
    You need to read the entire thread instead of picking bits and pieces. That (using honey as primer) didn't work at all though I was told by some that it would. The second time I grafted I primed the cups with one day old royal jelly. I had a 78% take. Unfortunately I put half of the cells into nursery frames and it got too cold over the weekend and all but one got chilled and did not develop. The one which survived the cold snap emerged and appeared healthy and is now heading up a nuc. The ten which I put in the minis will be also heading up some nucs after I can verify that they have mated and a few will be mailed out. Needless to say, I don't have the extra queens I anticipated on having. Mike Singleton from Coal Mountain Queens was here last Saturday and we grafted some larvae from my feral hive. I checked today and most have been capped. These will not be put into a nursery frame but will be put into some mini nucs and some will be used for some five framers. The other half of the cells went into mini in the nucs before the cold snap and emerged and look nice (I just checked them today, the virgins are a little hard to spot but I managed to locate them). Also, I was not planning on selling queens upon emergence ("13 days later"). They must first mate and I would not release them for sell until I see capped brood. The queens which were put into the mini nucs will be used for more nucs which I plan on building (I'll send a few out). It's never appropriate to make assumptions about what someone else is doing unless you can see first hand or ask appropriate questions (instead of assuming). This was a pretty nice thread until you (Brandy) got on here making your assumptions and doing your best to discredit me. Though I am just learning about the grafting, I can and am learning quick (it's easy to learn about anything when your IQ is 148). The next time you suggest that people not buy my queens you should try some yourself, that way you actually have something to base your opinions on. Try reading this entire thread and you will see the progress I am making (you talk about priming with honey but make no mention of using royal jelly the second time). I would never sell someone an inferior product. I don't want to lose future potential customers. In the future, in regards to handing out advice, give first hand advice instead of conjecturing about the possibilities that may or may not exist. First hand experience speaks best instead of just sitting back and imagining the worst about someone else. Also, as far as qualifying freshly raised queens by keeping them for a year before selling them, be sure to do that yourself if you should ever buy an AI queen. I've been on the phone with some of the people who produce AI queens and once they AI the queens they will wait to see if they lay eggs then sell them as "breeder queens". Some people who sell breeder queens go through a more stringent process but most I spoke with will sell their AI queens when they start laying. That's a pretty big investment for someone to have to wait an entire year to fool around with the offspring (and possibly have ther AI queen superceded). You also spoke of supercedure. Do you even know what the rate of supercedure is for commercially bought queens? From some of the posts I've read on here it is quite high, higher than I would have expected. (Try doing a search). I really don't feel that I should explain myself to you, because all you want to do is criticize, but I do feel that is necessary to explain the facts to those who are interested. Like I said, the next time you want to recommend that no one should by my product you should try it first. This way you can actually have some first hand facts instead of making a bunch of assumptions. I can just as easily do my best to discredit any post you make in the future, without having any first hand evidence (but I won't). I will not be selling any queens from first successful graft due to the fact I put some in nursery frames and they got too cold and quit developing last weekend. However, I do have about 25 queen cells now, which Mike and I grafted last Saturday, which will end up in some mini nucs, or some big nucs for myself, and I do plan on selling some of these. These are from my third graft this year. First graft did not do anything, my second graft had a 78% take, but I killed 10 of them by putting them into a nursery frame where the bees could not keep them warm enough when it got down to freezing Sunday and Monday. My third round will not be put into nursery frames but some minis, and some nucs, but their will be extra after they have mated. I'm currently preparing a colony in three deeps for my next graft. I'll try to see if I can get the cells bigger even though the ones that emerged from my second round of grafting look just fine. I also have a two deep colony which I made queenless for a short time which I will be harvesting some royal jelly from tomorrow to prime my cell cups with for my next graft.

    Well first you want to ask about raising queens and monitoring for a year. After I responded about doing just that, you want to talk about "small" cells as opposed to "monster" cells. Just in case you haven't done your homework, bee of different strains will not be equal. The link below is of natural swarm cells which were in the colony I extracted from a wall from which the mother queen derived. You can see that they do not appear to be nearly as large as the cells in the other post.

    http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...1/IMG_1341.jpg

    When allowed to make natural comb, these bees make their cells smaller than what is typically average for my area. A lot of people like small cell. Wouldn't it be nice to have bees who want to make it themselves without having to be regressed? One of the nucs I made with a daughter from the feral mother swarmed on me yesterday. I've been trying to keep them from swarming but you can never be 100% successful at that. I mad a four frame nuc with here last June. She built up enough between then and now and cast a swarm. I was surprised when it happened as I was in the yard making a split to keep just that thing from happening. The swarm now occupies three medium nucs. Oh well, but Brandy, you might not want to keep bees who seem to resistant to tracheal mites, are inclined to make small cell, build up nicely, and can overwinter successfully without the use of chemicals or treatment. But that's up to you.

    > Cass Would you try shipping any extra queens? If so I would be interested in one you have done enough studying of this offspring to know they are from great feral stock. And all daughters of hers are performing well and could be resilient certain diseases. Shoot me a pm. If you need queen cages to ship I have some I could send you just let me know.

    aNGI

    Angi, I ordered a few hundred cages when I got my queen supplies last month. When they are mated and laying and have capped brood I would be more than happy to send you some. I really like the bees that the queens produce. They are gentle, the mother produced well last year, I did two hygienic tests on her last year and they cleaned the frozen brood within 24 hrs, and they also seem resistant to TM. I do want to send out about a dozen to some beekeepers to get some feedback from people who have tried the FIRST HAND and don't make assumptions. For the first dozen or so I send out I will not be charging anything other than shipping. This way I can get the feedback which I believe will all be positive to discredit the naysayers. If you want a few I will send them to you and after you receive them you can send me what it cost to ship them. My next batch will be hatching out next Thursday, but I do have a few in the minis that you could get about a week earlier if you want them. Angi, just shoot me a PM when you are ready for a few. I'll be making up 32 more minis this week so I should have a few extra for those who want to try them.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandy View Post

    "I" just had a problem with the priming of queen cell's cup's with honey one day to selling "extra" queen's 13 day's later. My fault, what was I thinking??
    What was you thinking? You was thinking that you would pick bits and pieces of the thread to use to discredit me instead of reading everything and following the progress. Obviously you did not read about the second round where I used royal jelly to prime with and had a 78% take. The second graft took place 6 days after the first, which after another 5 days the cells were capped. Don't be so lazy and try reading the whole story next time.
    Last edited by WVbeekeeper; 04-20-2008 at 12:36 AM.

  4. #64
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    Default Queens and grafting

    An open letter to all reading this thresd,
    There are some that have a mind set that their way is the best because it worked so well for them....Others want to do research on the Queen and cut up her parts to see how well the drones did their job.... Some take the Queen and hive to some remote place and see just what kind of prodigy that could be found to brag about for marketing her.....
    I like to look at it in the "keep it simple" type of product that people keep asking for and pay me for....
    Pumping out the queens is important for a beekeeper to focus on because with out a laying Queen you are out of the loop with bees! The "easiest" way that this job can be done is the "best" way for me! That's No 1....
    As beekeepers we need to find out the best queen for our operation, one that is there in the spring with enought bees to get the job done, what ever that may be for you.... One that is raised in your area/microclimate...
    All the little things that make the job harder are lost with my type way of operating...
    So you make the decision, up front, what bees to use and why and leave the fun stuff till later when you know what works for you.
    Most Queens last more than one season and if they don't then there was a problem with matting, you need more drones in that case.....
    If my memory is correct, Steve Tabor said that someone had a Queen that was still laying fertile eggs after 7 years.... This was not a Queen that was just in a marked hive but one that was kept just for breeding queens from in a confined place...
    The second most important quality is her patern of laying eggs.... That is all of the same age or very close to the same on one side if a standerd size brood frame....
    My next quality check would be for aggression... Sometimes they work better....
    Well that's it for me, hope all you young bee breeders keep up on the new ways of doing cells and nucs...
    Lee...

  5. #65
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    Default Quality Queens

    Cass,
    The quality of your Queens can be found as soon as the new workers start to forage, that's older than 10 days from emerging... Brood size patterns and other production qualities come later, after they are in a standerd size hive with a honey flow..... Most of the things your looked for in your choice of bees is in the bloodline you already grafted from.... The next is from the drones that will breed with your new Queens... A laying Queen is only the first sign, that is, she is a gyne, the second is did she mate well.... As her ovariolees produce the egg and the final fertilizing with a sperm in her ovipositioner... All this checking is value added to the price of the Queen you sell $$$$. So... How much time you spend on your checking makes you more money in the end... That's what you sell her for...
    I like to sell the nuc with the new Queen, you make even more that way, and less loss of Queens...
    Lee...
    Last edited by beemanlee; 04-30-2008 at 03:34 AM. Reason: Take out the "Q's"

  6. #66
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    Thanks HVH,

    I've been following along with the discussion here. Great info. I have the inexpensive Jenter look-a-like and it worked okay, but I ended up trying to do some grafting to fill the vacant cells that didn't get filled in the 24 hour span. So with that, I might as well get into grafting right from the start. I had 17 of 21 take. I have everything but the experience. I like the details HVH. Thanks

    Larry

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSBA Webmaster View Post
    Thanks HVH,

    I've been following along with the discussion here. Great info. I have the inexpensive Jenter look-a-like and it worked okay, but I ended up trying to do some grafting to fill the vacant cells that didn't get filled in the 24 hour span. So with that, I might as well get into grafting right from the start. I had 17 of 21 take. I have everything but the experience. I like the details HVH. Thanks

    Larry
    Larry,

    Thanks for the kind words. Sometimes I think that I graft so I can replace all the bees that swarm. Swarming started really early here this year and I keep calculating in my head the number of queens times 1000 eggs per day to try and figure out how many queens are needed before I recover my swarm losses. I graphed an Excel sheet of swarms two years ago and completely stopped the swarming last year with the Snelgrove method (timed it right). Since swarms were three weeks early this year, my losses were more than usual. I figure one new queen laying about 1000 eggs per day will take about 12 days to replace a three pound swarm. So I will need about 12 queens laying 12 days each to replace the 12 swarms that I know about. I shed a lot less tears knowing I can graft back my losses and then some. The other hundred or so queens will be overwintered in nucs this year which means it will be unusually cold this coming winter (Murphy's law).

    Best of Luck,
    Chris

  8. #68
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    Default What thread? was it 1rst Round Reply to Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MSBA Webmaster View Post
    Thanks HVH... I've been following along with the discussion here... Great info... I had 17 of 21 take... I have everything but the experience... I like the details HVH. Thanks Larry
    Larry,
    I received the e-mail on your post 316752 but didn't see the other posts which you were refering to the details by HVH...Was it a different thread post or 1rst Round Reply to Thread as it came to me as?
    Give me a shot back on this thread if I missed something that needs discussion as to the desired question or statement...
    Sometimes I don't log on till late at night and my brain stops on me, and I nod off....
    Lee...

  9. #69
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    so the priming with honey idea did not work? didn't think it would considering the source.

    there is a classifaction (seems like there is a total of four classification???) for various queens and the length of time they have layed and been observed. the more certain a person is of a queens brood patter, disposition of offspring, etc. the more time that is invested in the output and the higher the price the product should bring. some people will of course desire to get a cadallic for the price of a chevy.

    a naturally mated field run queen that has barely begun to lay in the box should not bring the price of a tested queen.

  10. #70
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    Default That honey thing is for cleaning and polising

    >137039:tecumseh; so the priming with honey idea did not work? didn't think it would considering the source.<
    tecumseh,
    The thing that Cass did is a way of getting the cups polished by the bees. He just took it one step more and did some grafting in to the cups. He made statements about it if you go back to post #62... That should help you here to know what was doing in the trying to learn processes of Queen rearing...

    >137039:tecumseh: the more time... the higher the price the product should bring. some people will of course desire to get a cadallic for the price of a chevy.<

    Yes, this is true, most people are of the honest type but some seem to want all they can get for nothing... Location is also part of the equation too...

    The guy that is taking his time on the learning thing will come out with the practial experience that is needed to raise his Queens, not just head knoledge he picked up from reading.
    Lee...

  11. #71
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    Clarksville, TN, US of A
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    Smile

    [/quote]there is a classifaction (seems like there is a total of four classification???) for various queens and the length of time they have layed and been observed. the more certain a person is of a queens brood patter, disposition of offspring, etc. the more time that is invested in the output and the higher the price the product should bring. some people will of course desire to get a cadallic for the price of a chevy.

    a naturally mated field run queen that has barely begun to lay in the box should not bring the price of a tested queen.[/quote]

    It seems there should be greater value for these tested queens but I have purchased too many chevettes for the cadallac price. I too raise my own now.
    If you are willing to Risk the Risk, Then you are willing to reap the rewards

  12. #72
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    well I don't know about in California beemanlee... but polishing cell cups is not the same as priming a cup.... at least it ain't here in Texas.

    and yes I would agree that queen rearing like most everything with the bees is about doing it.... although a bit of reading and study and consideration will certainly make the doing go a bit smoother.

  13. #73
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    ps... I was not referring to this tread in any way shape or form when I made the comment in regards to honey as a way of priming cells being inadequate and likely an unworkable idea. I have seen this suggest on any number of threads and really suspected (tried it once myself) that it was not the best of ideas.

    I can see where a bit of honey would make polishing the cells go a bit quicker. although for myself, I would rather (and do) just place wax cells into a robust hive with sufficient time where this has never been a real concern for me.... well it has never been a concerned since I learned that grafting into unpolished wax cells was never worth the time or effort (much less the 7 pounds of bees in the swarm box).

  14. #74
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    Default Natural Queen cups made by the bees work the best

    tecumseh,
    There is an easy way to graft a few Queens...
    If the amount of cells you need is small and you have a hive that is doing real good on honey stores... White capped frames of honey viewed from the top off the hive... Tip up the honey super and you should find a large number of queen cups all ready made... This will not work as well with a hive that has a queen excluder... Check the brood frames for quality patterns of full brood... If all looks good and the bees are easy to work then you have found a good hive to raise Queens from...

    This type of cell will always be made in the spring and during the first major honey flow... They work well for making a small amount of Queens from and you can graft into them and use this hive to start and finish them with only a small amount of effort on your part...The bees have already been working on the cups as the hive starts to fill with bees an honey...

    Put this grafted frame back in the center position of the brood box... While this hive is doing well in bring in the nector, the feeding is not going to be an issue to address... Even finishing the cells will be OK... Removing the Queen and two frames of capped brood with bees from this hive and put them in a nuc... From another hive not doing as well, take three empty honey frames, with out the bees and room for the Queen to lay in, into the nuc... Place the nuc behind the hive with the entrance in opposite direction of it's original hive entrance...

    You can go back into the hive in a day and see if the grafts you did were excepted by the cell bilders... It's like anything else you do in beekeeping... Sometimes it doesn't work the first time... But if the bees that are doing the cell building start to do their job, then you are going to have some good honey producing Queens in a 15 day period from your graft of one day old larve, providing the grafted cup has a 1 day old larve...

    Usually the bees start to remove the wax capping around the bottom outer edges of the Queen cells after the spinning of the cocoon, and exposing the fine threads...

    The bottom queen cups can be cut out as the times comes down to day 14 and placed in a stocked nuc with nurse bees, brood, honey and pollen... Commerical Queen producers will take and gather the cells 24 hours befor the new Queens emerg and place them in their nucs in the mating yard...
    Lee...

  15. #75
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    Default Queens, they are usually "not" everything you expected

    >317202: tested queens... but I have purchased too many chevettes...<

    Morierty,
    That is usually the case on most Queens... You spend a lot of money with expections of seeing great things, but they end up being nothing above avarage...
    Raising your own is the way to go...
    Lee...

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