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  1. #21
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    Jun 2004
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    edmonds, WA, USA
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    348

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    Can bees sence and avoid flowers contaminated by noxious pesticides and other chemicles? If they can and do, it wouldnt be surprising that they dont rob out ccd hives.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,788

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    >>Ian,
    I think my doubt and pessimism comes from the fact that this "observation" was determined within the first 30 days of anyone looking at CCD. Now, I'm not one to debate how long research should take, but this seemed like a knee-jerk observation that was not properly studied. I understand the rush to be the first in getting the CCD story out and all the stuff that is part of the research platform.


    Very interesting comments Bjornbee. The "not robbing out" symtom has kind of been used as one of the main identifiers of CCD, that after dissapearance of bees with a hive full of brood, and its sudden expression.

    Does anyone here have any links to studdy into CCD explaining the not robbing syndrome?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Auger Hole, MN
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    433

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    M. Frazier mentioned recently that CCD brood combs were pushing the LD50 levels for Fluvalinate.

    Hows that for a reason bees might not be robbing out the chem abusers hives?

    Most of the data on CCD thats provided by beekeepers to Jerry B and AIA is suspect in my opinion. Jerry is very intelligent and a great resource to US beekeeping, but keep in mind he is running a for profit business. At every step of the way in the last 18 months he has maintained CCD is getting worse or wide spread or what have you. He is selling analytical and consulting services so I feel his data is suspect and self serving. I do not say this to tarnish his reputation or the value of his analytical services. We just need to keep in mind where he is coming from.

    Most migratory beekeepers are far from being generous with data concerning their operations. Hobbyists are not good sources either for determining the cause for a colony loss.

    A major mystery of CCD is actually what the scope of the problem really is.

    Additionally now there are good political reasons to puff up the CCD story as research monies are being lined up and another Congressional hearing on the bee loss is planned for April

    The reality is most brood combs are heavily contaminated, beekeeping has become beemoving for some, ag pesticide use is rampant and the genetic diversity and quality of conveyor belt queens is lacking. Aside from ag pesticide problems the rest of these ills are beekeeper caused.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Volga, SD
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    2,790

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    At every step of the way in the last 18 months he has maintained CCD is getting worse or wide spread or what have you. He is selling analytical and consulting services so I feel his data is suspect and self serving. -Bud Dingler
    But think of the "advertising" and publicity if he were to "solve" the CCD mystery! Think of the opportunity to claim his success! Think of how many beekeepers, confronted with puzzles of all sorts, would turn to the "man who solved CCD" when they encounter unknowns in their beekeeping!

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Western Pennsylvania
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    2,071

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    Quote Originally Posted by ndvan View Post
    Namely, the hives affected by CCD don't get robbed out by bees or even other types of critters for a period of time after they collapse.

    My questions:

    1. How common is this "symptom" when hives collapse and are diagnosed with CCD?
    This is a great question!
    And it is easily explained.

    Consider that we have beekeepers in the north stating they have CCD because dead hives aren’t getting robbed. Well, I would not expect a colony to be robbed out at this time of year.

    It’s NOT uncommon for hives not to get robbed out, so making this a “symptom” IMO is BS.

    As for the tendency for Wax worm to ‘appear’ not to invade quickly in CCD colonies.

    The life cycle of the wax worm explains this observation:

    When a beekeeper finds a colony infested with wax worm. If you look at the life cycle of the wax worm, that indicates that the wax worm was present, AND the colony failing as far back as perhaps 6 weeks ago.

    Most of the time when beekeepers find waxworm, this indicates problems existing 4 to 6 weeks prior to the discovery. Beekeepers are “accustomed to this” and expect to see wax worm in failing colonies right off.

    BUT, if a colony suddenly collapses, it can take several weeks, perhaps 4 to 6 weeks to notice any wax worm damage. Giving the ‘Appearance’ that wax worm are avoiding it.

    Its all part of the CCD run away hysteria.

    Joe

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,260

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    [QUOTE=naturebee;305366]
    Consider that we have beekeepers in the north stating they have CCD because dead hives aren’t getting robbed. Well, I would not expect a colony to be robbed out at this time of year."

    Nor would I Joe, but weren't the first observations of this phenomenon noticed in FL in the fall? Wouldn't one expect to see unattended honey being robbed in FL in Sept. or Oct.? I don't know myself, is there some nectar flow in FL at that time of year?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Camarillo, CA, USA
    Posts
    308

    Angry reality ck

    Its all part of the CCD run away hysteria.

    Joe[/QUOTE]


    Look, naturebee from an unkown location X, the reality is that many beekz including me have had major problemes from unkown sources affect how we make our living, there is no hysteria, just a lot of people having big problems in an age when info can be shared quickly. ie beesource.com, we need answers not your poor attitude towards a problem that is REAL & affecting beekz everywhere.

    So please adjust your tone, or do not post when you can't even let others know your location is. DO you even keep bees, ever lost a hive? or 100's of them, maybe 1000"s? and have a mortgage and family to support.

    I encourage all to share info so together we can find solutions.

    And in my observations from hive that collapsed in my operation, the bees do not rob out the hive. This is an actual obrevation, not a assumtion from afar. Until you see what can happen in your operation, please do not formulate answers on what you think should happen.

    Just an note, It has been learned within the past few weeks that when some of the viruses are introduced into a hive, the hive can die off in 3 days. This will probably open some other discussions, but that's the word on the street.

  8. #28
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    Dec 2004
    Location
    Western Pennsylvania
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    [QUOTE=sqkcrk;305397]
    Quote Originally Posted by naturebee View Post
    Nor would I Joe, but weren't the first observations of this phenomenon noticed in FL in the fall? Wouldn't one expect to see unattended honey being robbed in FL in Sept. or Oct.? I don't know myself, is there some nectar flow in FL at that time of year?
    The symptoms were noticed after Hacknenburg made his splits and nucs. I suppose it would be prudent to do splits on a nectar flow, so there must have been a bloom on at the time, and I would not expect to see much robbing.

    Joe
    Last edited by naturebee; 03-31-2008 at 07:08 PM.

  9. #29
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    Dec 2004
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    Western Pennsylvania
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSPender View Post
    Its all part of the CCD run away hysteria.
    look, naturebee from an unkown location X,
    .

    Well, when you are finding that your hives have had frames with queens stolen out of them by somebody I suppose was posing as a bee officer. You learn to hide your address. There are perhaps theives lurking.

    Quote Originally Posted by LSPender View Post
    the reality is that many beekz including me have had major problemes from unkown sources affect how we make our living, there is no hysteria, just a lot of people having big problems in an age when info can be shared quickly. ie beesource.com, we need answers not your poor attitude towards a problem that is REAL & affecting beekz everywhere.
    .

    I have never stated that beekeepers aren’t having serious problems. But I also see a mass hysteria out there, many cases reported as CCD when they can be explained with proper diagnosis.

    Quote Originally Posted by LSPender View Post
    So please adjust your tone, or do not post when you can't even let others know your location is. DO you even keep bees, ever lost a hive? or 100's of them, maybe 1000"s? and have a mortgage and family to support. .
    .

    I have lost many colonies through the years, but most were explainable with proper diagnosis.

    Quote Originally Posted by LSPender View Post
    And in my observations from hive that collapsed in my operation, the bees do not rob out the hive. This is an actual obrevation, not a assumtion from afar. Until you see what can happen in your operation, please do not formulate answers on what you think should happen..
    .

    Don’t be silly, I have seen it also!!!
    I had hives sit empty till mid May without any robbing occurring.
    It’s nothing unusual.

    Quote Originally Posted by LSPender View Post
    And in my observations from hive that collapsed in my operation, the bees do not rob out the hive.
    ..
    .

    Since you seek information.
    That a single hive collapsed, is not in accordance with the symptoms of CCD.
    As far as I am aware it must affect more than 50% of the colonies to be a symptom of CCD.

    Joe
    Last edited by naturebee; 03-31-2008 at 07:00 PM.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    LA Co, Calif, USA
    Posts
    86

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    ?s for LSPender -
    Did you fumigate your hives as planned?
    Have you put bees back in? How long did you wait ?
    Any acceptance problems?

    I am trying to follow how to tell if things are CCD or just winter loss? I have a yard that had 40 hives, 10 now dead. When I went back 8, of the dead were being robbed, 2 totally ignored. Does that mean the 2 not being robbed were hit by CCD?

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Camas, WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturebee View Post
    I suppose it would be prudent to do splits on a nectar flow, so there must have been a bloom on at the time, and I would not expect to see much robbing.

    Joe
    I must be doing it wrong. I always make splits before or after the flow, not during it. I leave them alone at that time. Maybe it depends on where you are. Our flow is usually May 15 to July 15. I split before and after those times, but I guess I am not saying that it should be done that way. There is robbing if you don't make the nucs/splits strong.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Lindsay Ontario
    Posts
    47

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    mbholl:
    Probably not ccd
    10/40 is not a 'bad' loss
    Remember ccd is infectious so it would be
    unusual for only 2 hives to have ccd
    How many (cups) of corpses in the box?
    (>6:unlikely, 2-5: possably, <2:likely
    depending on fall population too)

    And yes ccd hives will seldom be robbed
    by bees or ants. ccd hives can KILL an ant colony,
    depending on exposure
    When the moths finally come there are less
    then you would expect

    dave

  13. #33
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    Dec 2004
    Location
    Western Pennsylvania
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    Quote Originally Posted by beedeetee View Post
    I must be doing it wrong. I always make splits before or after the flow, not during it. I leave them alone at that time. Maybe it depends on where you are. Our flow is usually May 15 to July 15. I split before and after those times, but I guess I am not saying that it should be done that way. There is robbing if you don't make the nucs/splits strong.

    By nectar flow, I mean pre "honey flow" nectar flow such as Tree bloom, dandelion ect.

    Best Wishes,
    Joe

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    LA Co, Calif, USA
    Posts
    86

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    Check yesterday, ants are in the 2 hives, still being ignored by bees. Other 8 are being actively robbed - very little bloom around. Off subject ?, any hints on getting rid of ants without impacting hives?

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lewisberry, Pa, usa
    Posts
    6,080

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    I love ants. Last year I had them in some dead-outs for most of the summer. They cleaned the wax of just about everything. The bottom board, the comb, was spotless. And I also found out that those hives had NO wax moths in for the entire summer.

    I don't let them have supers of honey. And I don't want them destroying my wooden-ware, which if painted, does not seem to get harmed. But beyond that, the ants seem to have a number of positives.

    When I'm ready to use the hives, I shake them out and stack them some distance away. The ants that are left leave.

    I worry about wax moths. But not ants.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Auger Hole, MN
    Posts
    433

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    DThompson writes:

    "Remember ccd is infectious"

    we have no proof of that.

    dinks in spring after wintering in the north are NOT CCD. the loss of the cluster during winter leaving a queen and a few cups of bees in spring has been going on as long as beeks have kept bees.

    as the hive starts to brood up in march they are reluctant to leave the brood and the fringes of the cluster start to die of starvation.

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