Probiotics as defense against nosema?

[Michael Bush]

>Honestly I don't think you understand the difference between a gram positive and a gram negative bacteria

Yes, I do know the difference. I have 12 semester hours of college biology. I have done gram stains. But that wasn't my point.

>let alone the metabolic benefits of half the good bacteria you listed.

I have no idea the benefits of all of them, but I found them listed as normal flora and fauna in a bee hive and in a bee gut and they seemed like a good starting point to research the question. But it seems like anything that naturally lives in a healthy bee and hive would help displace things that shouldn't live in a healthy bee and hive.

>You included fungi and infectious spores - those are not probiotic in nature

Yes. They are probiotic in nature. One of the fungi that causes Stonebrood (Aspergillus fumigatus) kills Nosema. The fungus that causes Chalkbrood (Ascosphaera apis) kills EFB.

> clearly a demonstrations that you are merely flooding us in an attempt to overwhelm and hope we stray from the topic.

I was hoping you'd have some leads to research the topic.

[Grant]

Here's more info on probiotics,

http://www.jesterbee.com/Beebread.html

Grant
Jackson, MO

[Michael Bush]

>You included fungi and infectious spores - those are not probiotic in nature

Let's talk a little more about this. Most every mammal (and many other warm blooded animals as well) have E. coli in their intestines. Is it probiotic in nature? In your intestines, yes. In your food, no. In your bloodstream, no. In any other place it's a pathogen. But in your guts it's a normal bacteria that displaces "bad" bacteria. Your skin is covered with Staphylococcus aureus. Is this probiotic or is it a pathogen? On your skin, it crowds out dermatophytes such as fungi and yeasts. If you kill it off you get fungus infections and yeast infections. On the other hand if you let it get into a cut or, worse, into your bloodstream, Staph can kill you. So is Staph a pathogen or is it beneficial? Your mouth is full of bacteria and if you kill it off by using antibiotics, you'll get thrush (yeast infection). Are these bacteria in your mouth beneficial? Many "beneficial" organism provide only the benefit of displacing more dangerous organisms. But that is a HUGE benefit.

Almost all beneficial organisms have a dark side if the integrity of the body or the immune system are compromised.

[JBJ]

MB thanks for sharing your notes, this has been a strong area of interest for me for a while now. When I get a little more time I will share the avenues that I have been exploring.

[baithe]

Gentlemen,

Thank you all so much for your input on this question. It is heartening to me to encounter so many who are interested in exploring new ways to support the bees, and it has been interesting to read what others have to say. Mr. Bush, I particularly want to thank you for taking the time in the midst of your computer crash, to provide all those links. I haven't been able to do the research yet, but I read most of the excerpts in your post and found them very interesting. It is extremely helpful to have a place to begin. I don't feel overwhelmed by your offering at all, and truly hope you won't hesitate to provide this kind of help again in the future as I found it very valuable.

I haven't been able to read the web pages some of you have posted, but look forward to it as soon as I can.

I will be out of the country for a few weeks but hope to be in touch after I get back. Best regards to everyone.

Baithe

[Tim Hall]

I have come across a few references to using vinegar in conjunction with feeding to inhibit Nosema. I then found a research article where they tested this theory using acetic acid, and determined that simply acidifying the food (sugar syrup) had no effect on curbing the occurrence of Nosema. Of course acetic acid alone is not all that goes into vinegar, and I think this habit of abstracting or reducing things down to their 'active ingredient' is a major fallacy of science.

Hippocrates' favorite prescription was vinegar (vinegar likely made from fermented honey), and apple cider vinegar is a well-known American folk remedy for many things (not to affirm or deny its efficacy). Pardon all the hearsay, but I have also heard that raw vinegar can have a powerful alkalizing effect on the human body, while distilled vinegar does the opposite. Incidentally refined sugar is supposed to acidify the human body, while honey does not. I also suspect that raw vinegar may have probiotic properties. In fact all the live-culture fermented foods I'm personally familiar with have a neutral or alkalizing effect on the body, regardless of their own pH.

I can't seem to find the reference to it again, but I understand there may also be a correlation between the bees' pH and incidence of Nosema. Anybody following this crazy train of thought, and have some insights to add here?

Edit:
Found one of the 'hearsays' that brought all this to mind...http://beesource.com/forums/showthre...vinegar+nosema post #3

[Bodo]

All that the study did was prove that Acetic Acid wasn't the 'active ingredient'. You have to start somewhere. =D
Vinegar is only ~4-6% acetic acid, as you said. With each compound that doesn't work, you get closer to the one that does.

If it wasn't for scientific reasoning, we'd all be eating green bread mold as an anti-biotic. ;-)

[Matt Beekman]

This is a great thread. One aspect of bee nutrition that I have never heard discussed, researched or written about is the whole idea of incorporation of prebiotics in supplemental feeds. Prebiotics are non-digestible carbohydrates that feed gut bacteria. Most fields of animal husbandry have alreay incorporated prebiotics in supplemental feeds. It is not a new thing.

There are also immune boosting aspects to prebiotics. The most common form of prebiotics in animal feeds is yeast cell walls; also referred to as Saf Mannan or MOS. The following link is discusses this in great detail. I would encourage everyone following this thread or anyone with a remote interest in supplemental feeding of bees to check it out. It is worth mentioning that there is a dosage recommendation for bees for the product marketed by Fermex. I contacted them and supposedly beekeepers in Australia are using their yeast cell wall product.

http://www.fermex.com.au/img/File/YCWM.pdf

I would be very interested to get some feedback from other posters.

[hummingberd]

One thing I've gleaned from my studies is that many of the problems bees are currently faced with seem to be the result of irresponsible beekeeping practices

baithe-

In addition to this idea, a complete disregard for the natural order of how our environment works and our earth as a whole, I believe is affecting our bees. I can control what I put in the ground at my house, but I know the railroad company sprays herbicides along the tracks to keep things clear, and I can't control what my neighbors do with their property.
Because of that, I believe our bees can bee susceptible to too many poisons and disruptive chemicals. Often people take probiotics as a means of prevention in response to the assault on our environment and our (people, animals and bees) exposure to all the junk that gets put into it.

I would love to know how to set up a study. If it's not too fancy, I'd be willing to do some experiments...

[thenance007]

I am seriously considering giving my bees probiotics and would be very interested in any results those of you who have been experimenting with them have been having since the last post to this thread over 3 years ago. The main study I read used capsules of probiotics used for livestock feed, but I don't know enough about measurements to translate how much to give them.

"an initial trial involved feeding Þrst instars a mix of bacterial spores from species in the genera Bifidobacterium and Lactobacillus (B. infantis, B. longum, L. rhamnosus, L. acidophilus, and L. reuteri; Nature's Way, Springville, UT). This mixture was fed to bees at a cumulative concentration
of 2 x 10 to the 6th power cells per microliter of food. All subsequent trials used a similar mix containing L. rhamnosus (20%), L. casei (20%), L. plantarum (10%), L. acidophilus (20%), B. longum (20%), and B. breve (10%; Jarrow Formulas, Los Angeles, CA) fed at a cumulative concentration of 5 x 10 to the 5th power cells per microliter of bee food."

http://www.habeetat.eu/Images/Evans%...oney%20bee.pdf
Can anyone tell me how much and what kind you are using? I don't brew Kimbucha, so alternatives would be preferred. Thanks
Nancy Knox

[Michael Bush]

It seems to me that the first step is to not kill off the beneficial bacteria and fungi. The next is to maintain the normal pH of the hive to favor those bacteria and fungi. I'm not convinced that I know enough to innoculate them with microbes and know that I have improved anything. If you feed honey (correct pH etc.) and you don't use essential oils (anti microbial) or organic acids (dramatic shift in pH which kills most all microbes) or antibiotics (Fumidil will kill the fungi and Tylosin and TM will kill the bacteria) then you will get the things that should be living in a bee hive and in the bee gut and in the bee bread. The best way to innoculate a hive that is not doing well is to put a frame of bee bread and a frame of bees from a hive that is doing well. This should innoculate the hive that is not with the correct microbes.

[Gypsi]

Bwrangler,

I am interested in how your test turns out.

Gypsi

[Keith Jarrett]

Gypsi, are you referring to tea?

[Gypsi]

Page 2 post, B-wrangler.
"As Michael's post show, things aren't at simple as they seem, even with a creature as simple as a honeybee. The use of probiotics probably wouldn't introduce anything new into the honeybee's environment. But it sure might restore a few things man might have inadvertently taken out.

After my experience with small cell and then natural comb, I know how such seemly insignificant changes can significantly effect honeybee health. Inoculating a hive with probiotics would be exceedingly easy. It's a must do test for me."

I'm not up to testing anything except getting thru a winter after dearth,

[Keith Jarrett]

Tried that KomBucha tea on nosema,1 cup of straight tea 6 times @ 10 days apart, seemed not have to any effect on them.

[Gypsi]

Thank you. How did you get them to drink it? (I figure it was in sugar water, but my hive doesn't take a whole cup of 2:1 in a day. Robbers are another story)

[Keith Jarrett]

How did you get them to drink it?

I just use the drench method, man I can't choke down that stuff but the bees lapped it right up. Also, I use some weak & strong tea, one had a huge scoby but didn't bother the bees at all.This BTW was a couple of years ago.

[Hoosier]

WHAT ARE PROBIOTICS?
http://www.jonbarron.org/detoxing-healt … KgodFQoIpA

*******************
KEFIR - It's like yogurt on steroids.
Kefir is best by far. Not only does it have 42 probiotics (Yogurt has two.) in the forms of good bacterias and yeasts, it's the easiest to work with. I use two two-gallon glass jars with glass tops from Walmart and a plastic colander with long 1/8-inch slits, not small holes. I add a quart or two of milk per day, so I only have to strain it once a week into the other two-gallon jar that goes into the refrigerator; then I wash the first one, dump the grains from the plastic colander back into it, add a quart of milk, cover with a paper sack, and add a quart a day for seven more days. So that's more than a gallon a week for my wife, my chickens, my dogs, and me. I could make a gallon a day now if I wanted to, but...
The stuff is really something. EVERYONE should be drinking it. http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/Makekefir.html
Watch all ten of this guy's presentations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MELveoRjK8M

BUTTERMILK Its lactic acid and bacteria culture is super healthy. I make it a gallon at a time:
Buy a quart of buttermilk, pour it into a large container with a gallon of milk. Let the five quarts sit at room temperature for 24 hours, stirring occasionally, and you'll have five quarts. Save a quart to use with another gallon of milk later.
BTW, buttermilk will keep for a very long time in the refrigerator.
Store in a glass container(s).

YOGURT MAKE INEXPENSIVE YOGURT THE EASY WAY

You will need:
A small plastic, insulated cooler that will hold:
4 one-quart jars/lids for yogurt/milk OR 2 half-gallon jars/lids for yogurt milk
2 more quart jars to be filled with boiling water
A very large pan to first boil water and then heat milk to 185* F.

Ingredients:
One gallon of milk (1% to 4%)
One cup (or two heaping tablespoonsful per quart if not making a whole gallon) of PLAIN yogurt with live culture… no flavor… no fruit… Stonyfield Farms Organic plain yogurt OR Traders Point Creamery plain yogurt are both excellent and are sold by Marsh and other large chain stores for $5 quart.

I used an Igloo 26-quart cooler that K-Mart sells for about $20.

After the large pan of water is boiling, dip all the jars/lids in for several seconds to sterilize everything.

Pour the large pan of boiling water into the cooler and into two quart jars. Put the lids on the jars loosely. Close the cooler’s lid with the two jars filled and the rest of the boiling water in the bottom of the cooler.

Set the cooler aside to heat up and proceed to make the yogurt:

After cooling the large pan, use it again to heat one gallon of milk to 185 degrees (I used Anne's meat thermometer because I couldn't find a "candy" thermometer in two stores). Place the hot milk pan in a sink filled with ice water and let it cool to 115 degrees (took about five minutes with ice on outside of pan). Stir in one cup of plain yogurt into the 115* F milk. After mixing well, pour the milk into the four sterilized one-quart glass jars or two half-gallon jars and put on the lids (not tight).

Go back to the cooler, set the two quarts of hot water aside for a moment and empty the hot water out of the bottom of the cooler. Set the jars of warm milk/yogurt mix into the cooler with the two jars of boiling water and close the lid.
After ten to twelve hours, take out the bottles of milk (finished yogurt) and put them in the refrigerator to cool.

That’s it:
For the cost of a gallon of milk, you have four quarts of yogurt that are identical to the cup of expensive plain yogurt that you bought. Save a cup of your new yogurt to make another gallon when this one is gone.

KOMBUCHA Making Kombucha (one gallon)

You will need:
One scoby (symbiotic culture of bacteria and yeast)
One cup of starter (already made kombucha)
One gallon of boiling water
Seven Black tea teabags
Two cups of sugar

Bring one gallon of water to a boil and then turn it off.
Add two cups of sugar and seven black tea teabags to the very hot water.
Let the hot water with sugar and tea bags sit until the water cools.
Remove the tea bags from the cooled water.

Have the scoby and a cup of starter in the bottom of a very-wide-mouth glass container. The opening of the container should be wider than the depth of the liquid in it. The process needs the surface area for air/breathing.
Pour the cooled water into the glass container with the scoby and one cup of starter.
Cover the glass container with a cloth, not a glass lid; the mixture has to breathe.


After seven days remove the new (baby) scoby from the top of the old one (mother). Last week’s scoby (the mother) can be give to somebody else as a starter or thrown away. Note: If a new scoby (baby) looks underdeveloped, keep old (mother) and new (baby) together for another week before you separate them.
Strain your fresh kombucha into a glass container(s) and refrigerate. Use one cup of the fresh kombucha (starter) and the baby scoby (to be a new mother) to make a new batch for next week.

[Michael Bush]

I'm pretty sure the naturally done stuff in the Middle East and in Bulgaria are a lot more mixed up. Here's a likely list:

Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus
Lactobacillus Acidophilus
Lactobacillus Casei
Lactobacillus johnsonii
Lactobacillus rhamnosus
Lactobacillus paracasei
Lactobacillus fermentum
Lactobacillus plantarum
Lactobacillus plantarum
Lactobacillus rhamnosus
Bifidobacterium longum
Bifidobacterium animalis ssp. lactis Bb-12
Streptococcus thermophilus

[Acebird]

Don't pretend to know, it only hurts the beekeeping community and doesn't help your respect.

Wow! Wow! You said that to Michael Bush?

It hasn't shaken my respect ... All I can say is Wow!

We live in an era of germaphobes who are dead set on sterilizing everything and in so doing have weakened their immune system to a point where they get sick easily. I admit, I don't know what introducing probiotics would do for a colony of bees. I think it is helpful for me but I am not sure it is the right thing to do for the colony. I do like the idea of adding healthy bees and bread to the hive as a way of introducing probiotics rather than a massive dose. I certainly wouldn't take the whole bottle of probiotic pills in one day for myself. I think dosage matters greatly.