Chilean Queens

[irwin harlton]

"If this is the direction they association is taking, would you then expect the association to re-pay the money? Do you not feel they have spent the money into current worth while breeding projects"

I Would not expect the Queen Breeders Association to pay back or have the ability to pay back grants from the MBA.
I do not think they have spent our money wisely, just my opinion
The supply of early queens, say May 10th , has to come from USA, Hawaii, or Chile..... somewhere besides manitoba. There is a high demand for mated queens at this time of year

I agree that if Chilean BREEDERS can breed Manitoba genetic's( queens) than this program will work to our advantage.

Another bonus would be more genes coming into a limited gene supply, I think Chilean bees have been isolated for quite awhile and do not have African genes.

[Ian]

>>I do not think they have spent our money wisely, just my opinion

Could you elaberate on that thought for a bit, Irwin. I would be interested in hearing thoughts on it.

[JBJ]

"As far as the "genetic diversity" aspects, I've been the one saying that I'm not sure that we're suffering from as great a loss of diversity as has been suggested by others. I'm still not convinced by that one. So the "narrowing of genetic diversity" is not really an issue, in my opinion. (For comparison, look at AHB; virtually all AHB in South and North America are descendants of 26 colonies, yet they seem to be suffering no effects of a lack of genetic diversity.)" Kieck

The loss of diversity is very well documented. There have been a few new alleles added to the gene pool with recent imports. I think the reason that the AHB haven't showed the loss in diversity has to do with how the they are reproduced. They swarm so frequently that there are very large populations of ferals breed with whatever drones they like, unlike in a commercial queen production setting where thousand of daughters are produced from a single breeder queen in a single season. This type of reproduction would not occur without the help of man. In essence these are two different breeding systems that will yield very different results in terms of diversity.

[irwin harlton]

When you give an grant or make an investement you expect something in return for your money. I believe the money was spent at the Univerity of Manitoba, Entomolgy division,a good place to do research and spend this money.
I am not aware of any buissneess or breeding lines that were formed from this research.I think the desired result of the research was to be able to produce mite resistant queens early in the year in Manitoba.Perhaps this research is still ongoing.I have not heard of any results from these grants

[Kieck]

The loss of diversity is very well documented. -JBJ

Really? Where? I have yet to find any real documentation that "diversity" within Apis mellifera in North America has been reduced, especially at the genetic level. I see more merit to the argument that any subpopulations have been homogenized (less difference among groups than within groups), but I wonder how much "diversity" has even been lost there. The differences among some of the races -- even in a "pure" form -- are very, very difficult to detect without detailed morphometric analyses.

There have been a few new alleles added to the gene pool with recent imports. -JBJ

This, by its very definition, means that diversity at the level of alleles has increased, not decreased. Can you identify alleles that have been lost or effectively eliminated from honey bees in North America?

I think the reason that the AHB haven't showed the loss in diversity has to do with how the they are reproduced. -JBJ

I terms of diversity, this doesn't matter. Africanized honey bees in the Americas originated from 26 colonies. That means that, even if each colony represented a distinct lineage of A. m. scutellata, a maximum of only 26 lineages resulted in the huge numbers of AHB present in the Americas now. Theoretically, at least, a few more immigrations could and may have occurred through swarms traveling as stowaways on cargo, but the same could happen with swarms from Europe or other locations.

Either way, the "bottleneck" that "should" have occurred with AHB from a founding with such a limited number of lineages does not seem to have much effect on the abilities of AHB to succeed from a selection standpoint.

For comparison, the number of EHB lineages imported over the years to the Americas were far greater than 26.

In essence these are two different breeding systems that will yield very different results in terms of diversity. -JBJ

That's not really how "diversity" is measured. On a genetic level, the differences in alleles from one organism to the next within populations is a measure of diversity. The more similar organisms are to each other than to "outgroups," the lower the diversity within the "ingroup." So, if we have a distinct race of honey bees, the diversity within that race is comparatively low. The diversity between one race and a second race is greater. But, the number of alleles and the distribution of alleles can lead to equal diversity within a homogenized population and a population composed of distinct subgroups.

[Kieck]

I think the desired result of the research was to be able to produce mite resistant queens early in the year in Manitoba. -irwin harlton

I'm curious about the goals of this program. I was under the impression that the queen breeders' association in Manitoba was attempting to breed queens that were suited to the climate, figuring that locally-produced queens from colonies that showed certain characteristics would produce colonies that would be more profitable for beekeepers, as well as expressing "mite resistant" or "mite tolerant" traits. Were they striving to produce early queens as well?

I also thought queens were available through a network of breeders who had this common goal and were selecting breeding stock to meet the criteria of this program.

[Ian]

>>queens were available through a network of breeders who had this common goal and were selecting breeding stock to meet the criteria of this program.
>>attempting to breed queens that were suited to the climate, figuring that locally-produced queens from colonies that showed certain characteristics would produce colonies that would be more profitable for beekeepers, as well as expressing "mite resistant" or "mite tolerant" traits

Yup that about sums it up Kieck.
The argument on how early they could supply queens all depends on the spring weather of that year, usually cells are avaliable second week of May if they pushed it. Supplying early mated queens isnt possible, Early June is usually when we can consistantly get them ready. Selling cell is probably more popular.

As for the mite tolerance, I believe they have done quite a bit in term of selecting and breeding for increased grooming behaviours. My neighbour, who participates with the program, may I add dedicates his time towards the project, was telling me the bees performed quite well. He was dabbling with Russian stock at the same time, and finnally gave up on that project, finding them too hard to work with, and actually figured the Manitoba select lines were out performing hte Russians in terms of mite tolerances and honey production.
His views were echoed within the association, and the results gathered off this line of Manitoba select queens are making consistant marks on the chart!

I feel the association is working and proceeding very well with thier project. A bit of cash infussion to help aid in issolating traits and develope line should be increased if you ask me. There is also a termendious amount of self motivated time involved with this project, that sometime goes overlooked. My neighbour pretty much has made his work with the association a part of his retirement, he charges for the cells and queens, but he also sends an extra 1$ per cell back to the association.

[Kieck]

Interesting stuff, Ian. I read a little about some of that work a while back (two years ago? three years ago? I don't remember). I do remember that I was interested enough to contemplate trying to import a few of those Manitoba queens into the U. S. until I learned something about all the red tape, then gave it up as a passing whim.

If I had a reasonably easy way to do it, I'd still be interested in getting a few of those queens.

Sounds like a good idea, still, and the idea of maybe exporting some of those genetics to Chile (or somewhere else) to duplicate the breeding program there so early queens would be available seems like a good concept to me. From the links here, though, I got the impression that the bees from Chile would mostly be Carniolans? Maybe after things get up a running some of the Manitoba queens would go the other way?

[Ian]

Ya Kieck, lots of red tape!
But there is no reason why other associations and groups wouldnt be able to achieve the same results. I would expect there are associations doing exactly the same thing, int the US

The Queen that I primarily use are Carniolans, and would take a stab suggesting most of the queens prefered into here would be Carniolans. I know of a few fellows who prefer Italians, all the same.
Having a Carniolan base stock would be a great advantage in my mind!

[JBJ]

Kieck, have you not seen Dr Steve Shepard's and others work on loss of diversity? They have actually counted alleles and the research is very very clear. Perhaps this would best be a topic for its own thread. We did pick up a few alleles with the recent importations Russians and the Australians but the number of alleles is still very low when compared to native populations in their home territories. Dr Spivak & Cobey also spoke about this at the conference last month in Sacramento.

Perhaps you are right and all of these researchers are wrong, but it would take empirical data to prove it. The genetic bottleneck has resulted from several die-offs and the nature of comercial queen production in the States. Most of the queens produced come form a mere handful of closely related breeders. This has been tracked through several mRNA studies. AHB has not experienced the die offs and most AHB reproduce on their own via multiple swarms so it would be nearly impossible for one queen to produce tens of thousands of daughters in one season as is routine comercial queen production.

[Kieck]

Kieck, have you not seen Dr Steve Shepard's and others work on loss of diversity? -JBJ

No, I haven't seen it, and I can't seem to find any peer-reviewed journal articles on allele loss in honey bees by Shepard. Can you provide the citations?

As far as Spivak and Cobey, I haven't heard their comments directly, but what I believe they are talking about is a bit different than what has been implied here. For example, the number of alleles in Apis mellifera carnica (which is what primarily interests Cobey) is less than the diversity of alleles in A. m. carnica in its native range. And the diversity of alleles in A. m. liguistica in North America will likely be less than the diversity of alleles in A. m. liguistica in its native range. If we wish to perpeptuate these distinct races here in North America and potentially gain all the benefits of the diversity within each race from that race's worldwide diversity, additional importations will be necessary.

But that doesn't mean that we're "losing" diversity in the bees that we have (have had) here in North America. "Diversity" is a peculiar measure, in that you need to establish bounds on the group in which you measure diversity. Overall, the diversity of alleles in honey bees in North America is almost certainly far greater than the diversity of alleles in A. m. liguistica worldwide. But the diversity of alleles in North American honey bees is far less than the diversity of alleles in honey bees worldwide. Of course, some of that diversity also produces traits like those seen in Cape honey bees (A. m. capensis).

The genetic bottleneck has resulted from several die-offs and the nature of comercial queen production in the States. -JBJ

The problem, here, really is that we have no pre-"bottleneck" versus post-"bottleneck" empirical data on which alleles were present and which were not. In fact, we're can't even say that such a "bottleneck" occurred. How many colonies were present in North America before the die-offs you cite? How many died off? What percentages were involved, and what alleles were lost? Was this really a "bottleneck," in that much of the diversity was lost? I suspect not, because "bottlenecks" tend to leave small populations of organisms that are remarkably similar to one another -- in other words, every bee that you see should be virtually indistinguishable for every other bee in all aspects. I don't see that. I see a broad spectrum of appearances and behaviors, even among the few bee colonies I manage.

This has been tracked through several mRNA studies. -JBJ

Keep in mind that mDNA (mitochondrial DNA) measures matrilines, not real diversity. In human terms, for example, if your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandmother was the same as that of the person sitting next to you at some public event, your mDNA (and resulting mRNA) would be the same. Do you believe that you would in essence be an identical twin to that individual? Diversity in organisms comes largely from nuclear DNA, not mitochondrial DNA. mDNA helps show some relatedness and identifies matrilines.

From what I've read, specific portions of DNA have not even been closely associated with loci of most alleles in honey bees. How can we presume to "know," then, which alleles are or are not specifically present in the entire population of honey bees in North America?