I'm surprised I haven't seen this report from Randy Oliver mentioned here
top left of the page
has this been discussed and I just missed it?
I have tried HSC in several packages that I started this year. I have had mixed results in how fast they accepted the plastic foundation. However I still believe this is an excellent approach to regression.
In the spring I plan to transition the HSC hives over to all regular 4.9 foundation and use HSC in other regression efforts.
I may even cut down some of the HSC for mini-mating nucs.
Bee all you can Bee!
I started 3 hives on it this spring
actually 2 were packages and one was a fairly weak 1 medium hive I "forced" onto it
the two packages fizzled due to slow acceptance during our spring flow and then a terrible drought, they just never took off
the third hive is a boomer, one of my best
the comb from the deadouts is now used and I'll definitely be using it this spring
hope we get some rain this year
I'm not aware of how Randy Oliver is qualified to conduct any type of study or why a company would choose him, to do this study. Anyone more familiar with his qualifications?
Did they offer the product to the Bee Labs, Penn State, U of Ga or Dyce for testing and were turned down? It just seems convenient to have Randy do a study and pronounce it a success the 1st. season (if I'm reading it correctly) and am I understanding ABJ is going to publish an article on this calling it a success?
That aside, I can't open the Norway Study or at least if I can it looks like it's take a long time. Anyone willing to do a synopsis of that work?
The reasons they cite for lower varroa are the mites are crowded out of the Cell, capping times and less drone comb. How did they establish this from the study. It would make sense with no or low drone comb (an un-natural condition for a hive) mite populations would be impacted. I'd like to see more on the other two or how that conclusion was drawn. This is the 1st. mention of crowding mites I recall and I wonder out loud if they have stumbled onto an aspect we haven't discussed here (unless I've missed it) of small cell varroa control?
Last edited by Joel; 01-16-2008 at 07:06 PM.
Thanks for posting this, I wish I could see the Norway Study.
Did you feed at all and was all the startup foundation HSC for the packages? It looks like the hive (now the boomer) had transferred brood to start with? If so were those bees on small cell prior to the HSC and if so. Why the HSC over standard small cell?
the Norway study is here
I started two packages on it
they both started slow, bees don't seem to care for plastic
but they had no choice and eventually got going
unfortunately by then our flow ws over and we had a really bad drought last summer
one crapped out due to my error
I'm pretty sure I rolled the queen and they failed to recover
the other made it till late december, then we had a cold snap and they starved
again, operator error
I didn't keep em fed
I had a lot of trouble feeding this year
top feeders and I had a LOT of bees drowning
still trying to get a technique worked out
the third hive was some VHS bees I had from the year before who were kinda weak and in a single box
I stacked boxes of HSC on top of them so that's the only place they had to expand and they took off like a rocket
I got 2 boxes of honey off them which was good for this year and I think I left a box on them I could have taken (if I had a brain I could have taken it and saved the hive that starved)
the bottom line for me is they don't like to accept it, but once they do they do fine
I'll do some careful stickyboard tests next year and see what I find
another reason I wanted to try it is as a possible tool against shb
don't know about that yet
bottom line, I just ordered two more boxes which is a lot for a guy with 10 hives
BTW, I'm pushing all my hive toward smallcell except one hive of survivors I got from iddee, they're my control
I'm sorry, I missed your first post and just saw the second
I think the Norway thing has been discussed here before
if I remember correctly the guy was part of a bigger study and was criticized for releasing his results before the study was done
search the beesource archives
I sent the paper to the email addy on your website
I know you do considerable experimentation on your own as I've been through your web site/ pictures. You should share more of what your doing with the post! I still could not open the Norway study so I'll PM.
Thanks for the answers.
Just did a quick search for 'Honey Super Cell' and got 16 pages of threads.
Here is the best one; http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ney+super+cell
My plan for this year is to get that other twenty boxes in production as well as forty more I just ordered. I want to get one box of HSC under one or two boxes of PC. So far I think the 'one and a half hive' is working the best for my area.
Last edited by BULLSEYE BILL; 01-16-2008 at 10:04 PM.
Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
Thanks to Dave for sending the Norway Report, and Bill for posting the last link, it really is pretty comprehensive: I completely missed this last year.
It clearly has some minor intro problems but looks pretty good on the whole. I'm thinking I'll order enough for 20 and let the bees draw them out for honey over Brood during the spring flow and then after extracting introduce them as brood frames. I assume wedge top frames are the way to go? I noted in Peggjams pictures the foundation looked shorter than the frames.
you're missing the point here Joel
this is complete plastic comb with frame included
the bees don't need to draw it
I cut mine up and put it in frames because I wanted mediums which they don't make but that not what is intended
here are some pics
in the middle picture you can see the comb is fully formed
Yea, I can be a little thick sometimes . I understood the drawn comb aspect. I had looked at pictures on the prev. post but what stuck in my mind was Jim's which had aparrently been cut down.
My thoughts on putting it over brood for honey was to get it waxed before introducing it to brood.
with the 2 packages I started on it I put them in a nuc with 4 frames of HSC and 1 drawn comb in the center
I figured they get established on the drawn comb and not want to leave
it worked (they stayed) but they clearly didn't like the HSC at the beginning
on the other hive I poured some sugar in the combs and whetted it then placed them on top of the hive in winter as extra feed
they jumped right on that
I know a newer beekeeper that spent a small fortune on HSC. He thought the bees where doing well. A 'decades of experience' beekeeper took a look through his bee yard and said they look awful. Time will tell if they get used to the plastic or not.
Thats not a scientific review, just a word of caution. Use caution before throwing down a lot of money on un-'proven' products. A few hives isn't a small fortune, this was considerably more than that.
Michael E Wilson
As Joel said, we could use the critical eye of Jim Fisher.
But as far as the Norway study goes, that does look pretty good to me. Sounds like a good study as far as I can tell from the article. Its good to hear some promising news in the cell size area. As stated in the study, the chalkbrood may have had some effect, but hard to say . Time will be telling with all the studies apparently underway.
Last edited by MichaelW; 01-17-2008 at 07:05 AM.
Michael E Wilson
>Use caution before throwing down a lot of money on un-'proven' products.
Or anything you haven't proven YOU like. It's frustrating to spend a lot of on something you eventually wish you hadn't...
My take on HSC as posted in the above referenced post;
My bees have two choices, HSC or PC. It seems that a lot of them prefer the PC but when it is full they use the HSC, and when consolidating will leave the HSC first. Others hives seem to not care and will use the HSC as quickly as the PC.
For the most part this was a year of getting the HSC used for the first time. What is common in both the PC and HSC is that once it is used by the bees, "broke in" if you will, it is accepted just like if it were their own wax.
Bottom line, It Depends. I will say that some bees like it, most tolerate it, and a few really just don't want to touch it.
I will also remind you that what works of one person will not automatically work for you. You have to modify your techniques when working with a new or different type of product.
Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
I started 5 non regressed four frame nucs on HSC the first week of Sept.
I brushed the HSC frames with wax before introducing them. The 3rd week of Sept. I added a medium, with half the frames of each super had drawn small cell. Today each hive is in one deep and two mediums. I will have to add a third medium before the citrus flow gets started. I am looking foreward to great spring. kw