new to bees,
I would appreciate some input on making my own pollen patties. Earlier I read that from BjornBee, that I could use dried egg yolks. I was wondering why only the yolk and not the dried egg whites aslo. Could anyone please let me know the reason for this. Someone had previously asked, but the question was never answered.
egg yolk is a good source of protein. in an extender pattie (a pollen pattie would only contain pollen) or pollen substitute pattie you are trying to balance the various amino acids (the building blocks of protein) to provide the bees with some minimum level of specific amino acids (arginine, + 9 others) typically using egg yolk, soyflour and brewers yeast.
I don't have a reference right here at hand but I would suspect that egg yolk also contain a fairly signifcant level of some specific amino acids that are lacking in some of the other protein sources.
thanks for the input. Now would you happen to know why they dont't include the whole dried egg in the formula. Let me see if i can find that link
When I took a course at OSU, Susan Coby just used pollen and sugar and a little sugar syrup to bind it together. If it works well for queen rearing, which is what she was doing, it will work for raising bees.
Up til now, many formulas were some well kept secret, or had ingredients that were added to keep the masses guessing.
Mannlake just recently started promoting and selling brewers yeast patties. I don't think they ever did before. Guess what the levels of amino acid levels and protein are? They are above the standard levels set and used in the industry. Protein above 40%, with amino acid profiles direct from the manufacturer well above those needed for bees.
So its not for protein or amino acids that all these other ingredients are added. I think some are added to set one maker apart from another, to add palatability, or to confuse the crap out of the masses who then go cross eyed and buy from someone rather than slush through the reasoning behind some of the ingredients.
Some ingredients have very practical application. Take canola oil. I will not vouch for the added benefits of this enzyme or that acid, or whatever it is they say it adds. But I will say that it makes the patties very soft. I never had a patty dry out when canola oil is used.
Brewers yeast has everything you need from a nutrition standpoint. Everything else is due to increasing palatability, or because someone wants to claim some special recipe. Many of these so called benefits of some of these extra added items, are from articles based on less than solid research, often using terms like "perhaps', "maybe", and "could".
I use brewers yeast as a base. And then add from there. Bees like many things added. A little vitamin C, a little salt, a little pollen, a little soy flour, a little egg yolk, etc. Add what you want. But start with the essential base product. And if you don't use egg yolks, its no big deal. Most of whats been seen over the years is fluff.
does anyone know where to buy brewers yeast in texas?
>So its not for protein or amino acids that all these other ingredients are added. I think some are added to set one maker apart from another, to add palatability, or to confuse the crap out of the masses who then go cross eyed and buy from someone rather than slush through the reasoning behind some of the ingredients.
Gee, not sure I want to respone to that.
>Some ingredients have very practical application. Take canola oil. I will not vouch for the added benefits of this enzyme or that acid, or whatever it is they say it adds. But I will say that it makes the patties very soft. I never had a patty dry out when canola oil is used.
To make the patty soft is not the reason I use it.
>Brewers yeast has everything you need from a nutrition standpoint. Everything else is due to increasing palatability
Not even close.
> And if you don't use egg yolks, its no big deal. Most of whats been seen over the years is fluff.
HA, Vitamin A in egg yolk, one of the most important vitamins in brood rearing. That what were talking about , I guess... NO guessing here.
lake thompson honey ask:
does anyone know where to buy brewers yeast in texas?
mann lake has a outlet at Alvin (not the chimpmuck). I buyer brewers yeast in small quantities at the local health food store.
Respond all you want Keith.
I use DeGroots standard for amino acid and proteins as outlined and used for over 50 years. If you have some better published standard, then post it.
DeGroots standard can be read here, as well as some basic information....
I buy my brewers yeast from the same place MannLake gets theirs. It comes with a nutrition profiles, meeting EVERY amino acid requirement, and surpasses the level of protein needed by bees.
I figured you would come out and mention some small detail such as vitamin A. What a laugh. First, you have no clue whats in brewers yeast based on your comment. So anything beyond that comment is questionable to begin with. How do you know what to add if you don't even know whats in brewers yeast to begin with? (I guess you could be using some inferior product of brewers yeast however) Second, I would also disagree with vitamin A being "one of the most important". The various vitamin B's are more important than A. but again, if you don't know whats in your base, then the rest is moot. Up til now, the discussion was based on amino acid and protein. I find mentioning every mineral and vitamin a little overkill. Whats next...Barium, Boron, Iron, Niacin, etc, etc, etc.......
But tell me keith, what is the level of vitamin A in your patties? And can you also list the level of vitamin A that the bee industry calls for? And any published information and research stating the level required, with supporting claims, etc.?
As for feeding pollen patties, its not rocket science. Feeding should be considered a temporary fix for a bad flow, a bad selected site, or for temporary brood increases needed for splits, etc. I don't expect my bees to live off the stuff for eternity. Its supplemental feeding. Its feeding to augment the pollen and natural feed the bees collect naturally. So debating some small detail such as some yet to be proved level such as vitamin A, is absurd.
Keith, your the classic case of the industry. your the first to claim this or that when it comes to pollen supplement feeding. You claim bees need this or that, with little research supported information, never really wanting to divulge information as to what goes into your product, and then always one of the first to bash someone else's comments, in some ""beat around the bush, but never really clear or helpful kind of way".
I would suggest that anyone reading this, should contact others like Mannlake and ask for amino acid levels and nutrition information BEFORE relying on comments from Keith in regards to what other people are doing, or what or where their products come from. We went down that road once before not long ago with Keith, and some can remember where that ended.
Yes, Keith, I can scan the bee mags and published information from over the years. I could list Vitamin C, salt, vitamin A, and probably 20 other suggested ingredients that have been the talk of the industry that someone felt was important in a bee supplement. You go knock yourself out, marketing your product. I'll be here mentioning actual nutritional analysis from manufacturers and backing up with research as much as I can with the minimal amounts out there.
For the average beekeeper reading this, who wants to supplement their bees diet for a host of reasons, (but not including year round feeding or migratory practices)..do yourself a favor....Don't get wrapped up in the hype!
Last edited by BjornBee; 12-14-2007 at 06:49 AM.
Keith: I have no clue why you chime in on subjects if you are not going to be any help. Bjorn is right, in this paticular subject, you are all secretive and not helpful. People are interested in your pollen patties and you are are clearly not interested.
I guess I am in the school of thought of actually helping people.
But I will stay on the "sidelines" on this one.
Knowledge should be shared... its kinda like sending your kids to school. Keith, you have a kid or two... you should know. Hope teachers dont stop sharing knowledge with your kids. Yikes.. its all secretive...
just my two cents...
Bjorn, what you just posted is nothing but alot of fluff.
To answer your main question, ERIC MUSSEN U.C. DAVIS.
He has given more talks lately and is a bee nutrition expert.
Hello anybody there in PA. wake up Bjorn
Originally Posted by Chef Isaac
Hey Chef, last time I looked I paid the pre School teacher.
Ask Mann Lake what's in there how much and where to get the supplies. I'm sure they will tell you.
Keith, answer the questions. Whats the level of vitamin A that has been set as some standard? And what is the level of vitamin A in your product?
I would think those basic questions should, or could be answered, since you openly state the importance and discredit others along the way.
Just answer the questions....
Yes, everyone should ask Mannlake as keith has suggested. Not sure if they will tell you who there suppliers are, but they would be able to give you nutrition values. Something your not going to get here from those with fluff...
Bjorn, you figure it out, like I have spent month's on end doing just that. Also, since were thowing Keith under the bus....
You have no idea how much money & time I've spent on lab results with pollen sub products.
I have analysis of bee pollen & my pollen sub, And to say I don't know what I'm using.
To make reckless statements in your earlyer post about pollen sub is just a rookie move.
Fat Bees Skinny Bees
[SIZE=2]a manual on honey bee nutrition for beekeepers[/SIZE]
"There is no complete
success story whereby one
recipe works in all
It says vit A & K for brood rearing. K, BTW, is found in geen leafy vegg.
Both of these are seeked in my patty and have it, the cost is high for these TWO vitamins. But I feel is worth it.
Bjorn, you should read the whole story, posted by Barry, before making any more loose cannon statements using my name.
Of course trace elements are needed for a host of things. I read the part about vitamin A. But NOWHERE did I read some standard of level required.
You say one product or another does not have enough vitamin A. (But no standard has been given)
You claim that your product, through your recipe has enough or is somehow superior (But as of this time, no standard has been given, and no such analysis of your product has been seen)
So how can any claim be made with no standard, and no analysis of your product? Can we go back to fluff, perhaps with hype thrown in?
Please give me something else to go on....
You take a casual mention of vitamins, in which vitamin A is included, and throw some egg yolk in your recipe, and then make claims. And then call me rookie. That's how this works?
How about quit mentioning all this lab work, time, and money spent, and just answer the questions and post the results you now claim to have. Although with no standard in the industry concerning vitamin A, I'm not sure the value of such information. But I guess it sounds good for marketing, until someone calls you on it.
Last edited by BjornBee; 12-14-2007 at 08:32 AM.
Keith, I'm sure YOU know what you are using, but the rest of us don't. That is why you are getting heated responses here.
I recognize that you spent a bunch of time and money perfecting your recipe, and would like to recoup that investment somehow, some way, someday. Please find a way to do that. Sell the patties, or bulk mix or whatever you wish to do. Nobody will fault you for that. (well, maybe they will, but that is not right either.)
Someday when you've recovered your investment, maybe then you'll share with the rest of us. At that point I agree with Chef - it should be shared.
Someday maybe it won't just be about you and your investment and you'll be able to sit back in your rocking chair and think for a moment about how you made the world a tiny bit better by perfecting and sharing a recipe that provided bees with good nutrition.
At that point in your life it is a small thing that makes a big difference.
very well said,
Who's to say that what I'm doing is correct??? I ask myself this question all the time.
It's just like at the beesource photo gallerie (bees waiting for almonds), I sold a keeper a bunch of sub, he put it on top which I did not recomend. The bees are taking it BTW.
Once a week I go by and weigh patties to see how much they have eaten, this is recorded to the ounce, along with weather data, size of hive & breed of queen .
Troy, what I'm doing is to find out if this method is feasable.
There are three different mixes, with different levels of sugar in that yard.
All to find out what works and what does not.
This takes time and effort.
But I have a problem when someone says, " this xyz does nothing for the bees" when in fact it does. That's when i'll speak up.
I use to be able to crawl out from under the bus alot faster in my younger days, but I'm getting alot of practice here.