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  1. #41
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    26,106

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    [QUOTE=florida pollinator;320990]Sqkcrk,
    .Does that sound like a smoke and mirrors made up story?
    QUOTE]

    I don't doubt the reality of CCD, but life goes on somehow. And changes occur whether we like them or not. Somehow you saw the investment of $85,000.00 into a somewhat unsure future worth the risk. I'm sure you could have used that capital for something else if you didn't have to replace bees. I wish you and all of us a better future.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  2. #42
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Adlaide, South Australia
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    17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Fischer View Post
    > this is not "stress" or "immune system"
    or any of the other alternative explanations offered. This is an
    exotic invasive disease pathogen or multiple pathogens.
    How is the status of the Bee's Health, eg immune system - not related to it's ability to fight off exotic diseases/pathogens???

    Noel

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Casper, Wy, USA
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    804

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    Hi Guys,

    I've had two different encounters with CCD.

    The first was in 1976. Lost 400 hives per week first seen halfway through the dandelion bloom. It's the exact same symptoms as seen today. Hives weren't migratory. No mites then. And no chemicals were used in the hives. Hives went from boomers to empties in less than 3 days. Only a couple of hives would be unaffected in a yard. Splits were made the same season and comb reused without any problems.

    The second incident was in 2001 with a couple of hives established from southwestern small cell stock. This stock was probably africanized as determined by behavior and origin. They were on clean small cell sized comb without any treatments. And weren't migratory.

    This second batch experienced exactly the same symptoms as the first batch. It occurred at the same time of year. And over the same time frame. The hives were boomers with lots of sealed brood.

    I immediately placed the beeless brood on unaffected adjacent hives. That brood hatched without infecting their new hives.

    I haven't experienced any CCD since then. It is real. Any beekeeper with more than a season's experience can instantly spot it. It's not a type of dwindling, starving, swarming or absconding. It's exactly opposite that. The bees are in the best of health with solid, abundant brood. They build up rapidly with abundant honey, pollen, bees, brood.

    One day, they appear to be the best hives with strong motivation. The next day they are hives full of sealed brood, eggs and larva, pollen and honey. But without any bees dead or alive, except for an occasional queen and a cup full of newly hatched out unorganized young bees. No nurse bees. No field bees. Almost no queens. No bee clusters/swarms.

    The thought that such a profoundly different experience is just a misdiagnoses of a typical bee problem is just the same old 'ignorant beekeeper' cry that has accompanied previous outbreaks of CCD.

    Regards
    Dennis
    Last edited by BWrangler; 05-24-2008 at 07:10 AM. Reason: am bearly literate. can't type or spell. don't even know what grammar is.
    I once wrangled bees. But now, knowing better, I just let them bee.
    http://talkingstick.me/category/bees/

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
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    The specific symptoms mentioned by BWrangler:


    1. "Hives went from boomers to empties in less than 3 days"
    2. "Only a couple of hives would be unaffected in a yard."
    3. "Splits were made the same season and comb reused without any problems."

    Are not at all symptomatic of CCD:


    • The timeframe is too short for CCD
    • The lack of spread within yards is contradictory with CCD
    • The re-use of comb contradicts the experience of those with actual CCD.

    The 2nd incident is explained as a simple absconding of AHB, so it would
    not be CCD either.

    So, I don't see either of these incidents as having anything at all to do
    with CCD. This is not at all surprising, as these incidents happened long
    before the specific pathogens associated with CCD (two kinds of nosema
    and two different viruses) had come to our shores in all that World Trade
    that everyone thought was such a good idea at the time.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Troupsburg, NY
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    4,074

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    "World Trade that everyone thought was such a good idea at the time."

    Yup, we just get a handle on one new pest, then get hit with another new one. Makes keeping bees a real challange.
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Casper, Wy, USA
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    804

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    Hi Guys,

    >This is not at all surprising, as these incidents happened long
    before the specific pathogens associated with CCD (two kinds of nosema
    and two different viruses)

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And my opinion is that Jim has misdiagnosed my experience. Those symptoms are much the same as CCD today. A different disease may cause the same symptoms.

    But, if not, I'm glad to hear that CCD is now so clearly defined and so definitely associated with such specific pathogens! Maybe someone ought to tell those researchers and the funding agencies. :>)))

    Regards
    Dennis
    I once wrangled bees. But now, knowing better, I just let them bee.
    http://talkingstick.me/category/bees/

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Nevada County, CA
    Posts
    1,083

    Default

    <I admit it's a goofy idea but what if the bees have a larger than a yearly cycle where they "die-off" every so often as a way to eliminate pests and disease. We of course maintain the use of old comb to undermine this "purification."
    Crazy, no?>

    No.
    doug

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Nevada County, CA
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    1,083

    Default

    <I admit it's a goofy idea but what if the bees have a larger than a yearly cycle where they "die-off" every so often as a way to eliminate pests and disease. We of course maintain the use of old comb to undermine this "purification."
    Crazy, no?>

    No.

    <Jim Fisher Says: Why would anyone think that?

    Once you believe that science has all the answers, science becomes a religion. Of course all religions are right all of the time no matter how many other religions have conflicting views. I have as much training in science as most academics although I chose to use it differantly. I don't believe in science. I believe it is one of the finest tools man has invented as long as it is used correctly, but that there is as much that science will never discover as there is that has or will be discovered.
    doug

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,157

    Lightbulb

    Doug, Well said

  10. #50
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Adlaide, South Australia
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    17

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    So if it is about disease and pathogens... Well managed bees with healthy immune system should fare better... Is this what we are seeing?

    However if it is a poison, then no amount of good health will help.

    Noel
    Last edited by noelb; 05-25-2008 at 10:45 PM.

  11. #51
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    Jan 2001
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    New York City
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    > Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

    But everyone is not entitled to their own facts.

    > And my opinion is that Jim has misdiagnosed my experience.

    Then please explain in more detail. What you've explained simply
    does not match the symptoms well-known to be associated with
    CCD.

    > Those symptoms are much the same as CCD today.

    I indicated where your experience varied from what we are seeing
    with CCD, why are you still insisting that they are "much the same"?

    > A different disease may cause the same symptoms.

    But you didn't have the "same symptoms", did you?

  12. #52
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    > Once you believe that science has all the
    > answers, science becomes a religion.

    What, that old argument? Again?


    Science is based upon verified evidence.

    Religious faith not only lacks evidence, its
    lack of evidence is its pride and joy
    , loudly
    shouted from the rooftops.

    Why else would Christians speak of "Doubting Thomas"?
    The other apostles were held up to us as examples of
    virtue because faith alone was enough for them.
    Doubting Thomas, on the other hand, required evidence.

    Maybe he should be the "Patron Saint of Scientists".
    (This would raise the interesting question of who
    might pray to such a saint!)

    Another ooold story:

    "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God,
    "Proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

    "But," says Man, "Your creation itself is a dead
    giveaway isn't it?
    It proves you exist, and thereby denies faith.
    Therefore, you don't exist, do you?"

    "Oh my," says God, "I hadn't thought of that,"
    and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Casper, Wy, USA
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    804

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    Greetings,

    ...But everyone is not entitled to their own facts.

    Oh yes they are. And you are living proof of that!

    >...we are seeing with CCD

    Who is "we"? Do you have some personal experience with CCD. Or are you just repeating someone else's opinion? As I understand it, when pressed for facts, the researchers aren't ready to commit to much of anything.

    BWrangler
    I once wrangled bees. But now, knowing better, I just let them bee.
    http://talkingstick.me/category/bees/

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
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    >>...what we are seeing with CCD...

    > Who is "we"? Do you have some personal experience with CCD.

    I've been lucky myself, but I've gone and looked at lots of it
    in other operations, both alone, and in the company of people
    taking samples for analysis.

    > As I understand it, when pressed for facts, the researchers
    > aren't ready to commit to much of anything.

    Here's some news briefs that will correct the misconception(s)
    you were fed:

    http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-20...3.archive.html
    http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-20...4.archive.html

    You can also read these articles, which have more detail than you
    will find anywhere else:

    http://bee-quick.com/reprints/

    And no, you are not entitled to your own facts.
    I'll respect your opinion, but you have to base your opinions upon,
    and mesh them with, the facts.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
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    For anyone needing diagrams, here is a comparison of science and faith
    in very clear graphics:

    http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/232/religionkv0.png

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Casper, Wy, USA
    Posts
    804

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    Hi Jim and Everyone,

    Thanks for the list. It's always good to get more facts, even if some of them are contradictory.Then I can form some new opinions. Half the fun is lining them up so they make some sense.

    I'll be off the computer for the rest of the summer. It will be interesting to see what has transpired when I return this fall.

    Hope you guys can get it figured out without me :>)))))

    Regards
    Dennis
    I once wrangled bees. But now, knowing better, I just let them bee.
    http://talkingstick.me/category/bees/

  17. #57
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    May 2008
    Location
    Cedar Bluff, Virginia, USA
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    141

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    I read somewhere that only commerical beekeepers were the ones that were effected. Assuming that is true here's a theory for you taking bees around the country be it for pollination or to catch a honey flow the bees are comming increasingly exposed to fumes from biofuels. I don't know if it's the problem but it is something people may want to look at.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
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    > read somewhere that only commerical beekeepers were the
    > ones that were effected.

    Nope, there has been no pattern at all to "who has been affected",
    except for the obvious situation of adjacent and nearby yards having
    the problem spread between them often, which only confirms again
    that the basic problem is a pathogen, rather than anything else.

    Is is a disease, a sickness, and no known set of management practices
    can help one avoid it.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    College Station, Texas
    Posts
    6,973

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    bwrangler writes:
    A different disease may cause the same symptoms.

    tecmseh replies: perhaps??? just a small point but I would suggest that a clearer statement would have been... similar symptoms can point to different diseases.

    and thank ya' jim fischer for keeping us on the straight and narrow here... perhaps this is a quality only old tecumseh can appreciate.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Lindsay Ontario
    Posts
    47

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    > Is is a disease, a sickness, and no known set of management practices
    >can help one avoid it.

    Formic acid. Its not a wonderful treatment
    but it sorta works
    I still don't like it at all, fortunatly the bees
    don't seem to mind
    If you are sure that ccd is there, more than 1 treatment

    dave

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