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  1. #21
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    >>>>>Perhaps Dick Marron will respond, as he gave up a few weeks of his
    time to help with some of the field sampling down in Florida.<<<<<

    Thanks Jim for mentioning my name. Though I worked on my article for many weeks I claim no expertise. I can vouch for the experience of the sampling team that worked with Dennis vanEnglesdorp. There were 2 veteran FL bee inspectors. (You have read their articles at some point)There were 3 serious beekeepers with over 1,000 hives And Dave Hackenberg (40 yrs experience)and I. Samples of comb, honey, bees and brood were organized according to a map made of the bee-yard. Some were frozen some in alcohol and some in vials. One yard had bees in 4 categories. Dead, Dying, Recovering and healthy. Weeks before they had been all healthy. The yard had 250 colonies. 100 dead and the rest equally divided. Samples noted these categories too. At the same time, Jerry Bromenschenk, having just left FL was in CA with a team of 5 of his regular employees doing the same thing.
    I have a picture I will post some day of the dead hives, standing on end, like tombstones. I lost my temper once on this list because people were going round and round about whether CCD exists or not. Go tell the owners (at least 5) of the thousands of hives we checked. These guys know what a sick hive looks like. They didn't get where they are by being dumb.

    When I started writing, I examined a concept found in nature, known as a die-off. That was the title (Apr. or May 07 of ABJ). I admit it's a goofy idea but what if the bees have a larger than a yearly cycle where they "die-off" every so often as a way to eliminate pests and disease. We of course maintain the use of old comb to undermine this "purification."
    Crazy, no?

    Joe,
    I think it was you who posted a list of die-offs on another list that I admired. Could you re-post it here?

    Dick Marron

  2. #22
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    Naturebee (Joe) quoted thusly:

    "One organism was significantly correlated with CCD: finding IAPV in a
    bee sample correctly distinguished CCD from non-CCD status 96.1
    percent of the time.
    "

    Wow, where have you been?

    Have you read the Evans/Chen paper?
    http://www.dadant.com/documents/ChenandEvansarticlefromDec07ABJ.pdf

    It has been on the web for over a month, and will appear in mailboxes
    in genuine print within the next few days.

    If you'd like it translated into English, you can read this:
    http://bee-quick.com/reprints/claims_collapse.pdf

    Which has also been on the web for a while, and will also appear in
    mailboxes (and even on newsstands!) just about now.

    Bottom line, IAPV was found in so many historical archive samples,
    that the number of "false positives" render IAPV useless as a
    "marker" for CCD, and prove very clearly that IAPV may well have
    nothing to do with CCD.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dickm View Post
    I lost my temper once on this list because people were going round and round about whether CCD exists or not. Go tell the owners (at least 5) of the thousands of hives we checked.
    Hi Dick,
    I hope your not mad at me.
    I believe it exists!
    But, I am also of the opinion that it CCD as vastly misdiagnosed and often falsely reported.
    Too many reports out there of CCD without any verification process.
    PA, manages to verify every case of AFB by inspector diagnosis, and lab tests,
    and yet we rely on inexperienced beekeepers to diagnosis many of the reported CCD
    cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by dickm View Post
    Joe,
    I think it was you who posted a list of die-offs on another list that I admired. Could you re-post it here?
    Dick Marron
    I am not able to do that.
    I tried posting it here once, but a gave up trying as Barry has a limit to the length of letter
    that one is able to submit, so it was rejected.

    I don’t recall where the heck I posted it, maybe on the Historical Honeybee Article site.


    Incidentally, you mention Dennis, and I will tell you that we are blessed here in PA to have Dennis vanEnglesdorp as our State Apiarist. During inspections, he has had a way of giving advice in a tactful manner. He has swayed my
    opinion on several matters of importance concerning the direction of selection of breeding stock.

    Best Wishes,
    Joe ~ Derry, PA
    http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/H...neybeeArticles
    FeralBeeProject.com
    Last edited by naturebee; 12-02-2007 at 08:42 PM.

  4. #24
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    > a list of die-offs on another list that I admired. Could you re-post it here?

    Perhaps it was taken from this Bee Culture article:

    http://www.beeculture.com/content/ColonyCollapseDisorderPDFs/7%20Colony%20Collapse%20Disorder%20Have%20We%20See n%20This%20Before%20-%20Robyn%20M.%20Underwood%20and%20Dennis%20vanEnge lsdorp.pdf


    It certainly has a fairly complete list, but it is a terrible piece,
    misleading in the extreme. The annoying things about this article are:

    a) It lists many incidents that are well-known to have specific causes
    (such as the tracheal mite impact, the initial varroa mite impact,
    several very bad droughts, and so on) without listing the causes,
    thus giving the impression that some mystery exists about the
    causes of these prior widespread losses.

    b) The article is titled "Colony Collapse Disorder: Have We Seen
    This Before?
    " yet the article makes no attempt to answer the
    question.

    Data collected since this article was written has made it crystal
    clear that CCD is completely unlike these prior "dwindlings" and
    widespread losses. So, the answer to the question posed in the
    title of the article is "No".

  5. #25
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    Guess I'll try one more time. I must be pretty dense.

    How exactly does one "diagnose" CCD? What will tell someone, without a doubt, this was CCD.. and not something else?
    To everything there is a season....

  6. #26
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    There is viable brood in the hive that the bees have mostly abandoned. There are a small # of bees and a queen left but not enough to cover brood. There are no dead or dying bees in the grass or on the landing board. Althought the colony is weak or abandoned entirely, robbing seems not to occur until later. Some hives made a comeback. It takes down whole yards and in a short time.

    dickm

  7. #27
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    Thanks dickm. One more question, are there diseases, pests, or dietary issues that could give you similar "symptoms"? If yes, how do you know which one it is?
    To everything there is a season....

  8. #28
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    With all due respect to Dr. Cox-Foster, Mrs. Frazier and the rest of the PSU crew, I won't be 100% confident in the findings until they are replicated in CA or FL colonies and vetted by the good folks at ARS. I have seen much biological research. It a difficult and iterative process. Wait for for the replications before jumping to any conclusions.

  9. #29
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    > are there diseases, pests, or dietary issues that could
    > give you similar "symptoms"?

    Nope.

    While different problems could cause one (or maybe even a few)
    of the symptoms seen in CCD, the combination of the basic items
    Dick listed are unique to CCD.

    I'm not trying to split hairs, but the whole "lack of robbing" issue
    is a tad shaky as an objective criteria in my view. The assumption
    that robbing would be a certainty if the subject colony had weakened
    due to a more mundane reason, such as a failing queen is more than
    just a bit speculative.

    But once you've seen a yard hit by CCD, you'll do what I did, which
    is to start whistling the "X-Files" theme song, or if you are hardcore
    old-skool, the "Twighlight Zone" theme song.

    Oh yeah, and you get angry.
    Cause there's nothing you can do to stop it.
    To paraphrase "Saving Private Ryan",
    "All we can do here is watch hives die."

    So cut people some slack on this issue, and just accept that it is real,
    it is a serious problem, and it has hit too many very different operations
    to be something that you can blame on "management", "being migratory",
    "miticide misuse", "pesticides in/on forage", or any of the other excuses.

    And please don't blame the victims. They'd do anything to save their
    bees, but no one can tell them what to do.

  10. #30
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    lewisberry, Pa, usa
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    JF,
    I agree with your shaky "robbing" criteria. I had been questioning that since April.

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...hlight=robbing (fourth post down)

    I had a deadout hive sit for the better part of all summer untouched. I was hoping for a swarm. But not only did I not get a swarm, but not one bee was interested. Not till July did the bees go after it.

  11. #31
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    Knoxville, Tennessee,USA
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    I too while recognizing the tragedy of the CCD epidemic believe that many beekeepers are using this 3-lettered acronym for the cause of their deadouts. PPM is what Robin Mountain calls his alternative to CCD. Ask him sometime about this theory. It is amazingly simple yet true.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Fischer View Post
    > a list of die-offs on another list that I admired. Could you re-post it here?

    It certainly has a fairly complete list, but it is a terrible piece,
    misleading in the extreme. The annoying things about this article are:

    a) It lists many incidents that are well-known to have specific causes
    (such as the tracheal mite impact, the initial varroa mite impact,
    several very bad droughts, and so on) without listing the causes,
    thus giving the impression that some mystery exists about the
    causes of these prior widespread losses.

    b) The article is titled "Colony Collapse Disorder: Have We Seen
    This Before?
    " yet the article makes no attempt to answer the
    question.

    Data collected since this article was written has made it crystal
    clear that CCD is completely unlike these prior "dwindlings" and
    widespread losses. So, the answer to the question posed in the
    title of the article is "No".
    I say what’s the difference?
    Bee dieoffs are bee dieoffs,,,
    lots a bees dieoff.

    And also, we know that we do not know what CCD is,
    but the experts suspect that stresses play a part.
    So I really do not see how we can categorically
    eliminate past die offs which are all categorized as stresses,
    just because they happen have a specific or known cause.

    Remember, Isle of Wight disease.
    The CCD of 1904.
    There was no specific cause known
    for some 17 years.


    Joe

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturebee View Post
    I say what’s the difference?
    Bee dieoffs are bee dieoffs,,,
    lots a bees dieoff.

    And also, we know that we do not know what CCD is,
    but the experts suspect that stresses play a part.
    So I really do not see how we can categorically
    eliminate past die offs which are all categorized as stresses,
    just because they happen have a specific or known cause.

    Remember, Isle of Wight disease.
    The CCD of 1904.
    There was no specific cause known
    for some 17 years.


    Joe
    Yes, I love how we don't really know the cause and some people are already proposing the purposeful introduction of AHB as a solution. Its amazing how vocal the idiotic and self-serving can be....

  14. #34
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    > I say what’s the difference?
    > Bee dieoffs are bee dieoffs,,,
    > lots a bees dieoff.

    Well, you were the one complaining that many of the
    reports were "misdiagnosis" without even a single
    specific example to back up your claim, here:

    http://beesource.com/forums/showpost...22&postcount=7

    so it is puzzling that you now claim to not care
    about the difference.

    I agree that there is very likely to be a certain
    percentage of misdiagnosed reports, as would
    any reasonable person, but this cannot be the
    case for anything even close to the majority,
    given the consistency of the symptoms being
    reported in the bulk of the cases.

    > And also, we know that we do not know what CCD is,
    > but the experts suspect that stresses play a part.

    No, they don't, not any more than they suspect that
    it is purely a pathogen. I've said over and over
    "What else but a virus spreads so quickly through
    a population of bees? A pesticide kill!
    "

    One of the confusing things about the whole issue
    of "stresses" and CCD is that bees are not being
    subjected to any stresses that they were not
    subjected to 5 years ago, yet there were no
    symptoms that looked anything like CCD until
    recently. This is a powerful refutation of the claims
    that "stress could be the trigger", or other such
    nonsense. This is something new and specific,
    and it simply has not been found.

    > So I really do not see how we can categorically
    > eliminate past die offs which are all categorized as stresses,
    > just because they happen have a specific or known cause.

    We certainly CAN "categorically eliminate past die offs"
    because we can see different symptoms, and these
    symptoms are nowhere even close to the symptoms of
    the causes of these past die offs.

    > Remember, Isle of Wight disease. The CCD of 1904.

    No, it was not "the CCD of 1904". It was something that
    killed bees, but that's about all it had in common.

    > There was no specific cause known for some 17 years.

    Back then, Science as applied to beekeeping was very
    primitive. The ease with which even 4-H students can
    detect "Isle of Wright Disease" today should make that
    clear.

    Yes, I know you want it not to be true, to be simply "hype",
    to be exaggerated, for it all to be a bad dream. Sorry,
    wishing that it will all go away if you just deny it all will
    not help. It is simply a way of doing nothing about the
    problem. Classic denial.

  15. #35
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    Adlaide, South Australia
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    Lightbulb Nutrition related? Maybe.

    IMHO I believe that the bees first line of defence against disease or chemicals is a Healthy Immune System. We still do not know all the functions of the immune system.

    Bear with me while I lay some foundation...

    In studying human health and the deterioration of our immune sytems of the last twenty or more years - 3% per year deterioration approx - and the latest advances in nutrition I believe that nutrition of the bees may play a major part in CCD.

    It has been scentifically documented that WE need certain nutrients to be healthy and that defficient of these our immune sytems suffer.
    Also that Certain KEY nutrients can positively affect the immune sytem in the Human body. These Key nutrients are obtained from Carbohydrates of varied sources. In the bees case they get this carbohydrate from nectar.

    All living matter has these Key nutrients on their cell surfaces even bacteria and Viruses. These Key nutrients enable the correct functioning of the body be it human or insect.

    Void of enough of these nutrients our bodies are unable to cope and disease is able to prosper.

    Stress will also deplete the body of nutrients more quickly.

    In regards to CCD in beehives.

    I believe that the immune system of the bees has to be afffected in much the same way our own immune systems have been affected - how are we doing... Not too good. Cancer was no. 10 on the list twenty or so years ago now it is number one.

    So... the bees immune system is suffering.

    Most of the bees are pollinating only few types of crop and are not getting the nutrients from multiple sources. This will limit the nutrition of the hive and it may even be void of Key nutrients. In some cases there may be very little carbohydrate.

    This may therefore further affect the bees immune system.

    The crops are sprayed with various chemicals and if that is the bees main source of nutrition, the chemicals will build up in the hive. Chemicals have a known affect on our immune systems, and I would suggest bees are no different.

    Immune sytems again affected.

    The stress of continually moving hives between crops would no doubt have an effect on the bees and possibly lower immune system.

    I doubt that any of the research being done is focusing on this aspect of nutrition and ways to improve the bees immune system. Even mainstream medicine poo poo's the idea and focuses instead on Pharmaceuticals. If you want to know anything about nutrition speak to a veterinarian.

    Obviously you can do what you can to vary the bees diet and restrict chemicals as much as possible.

    I have considered feeding the bees some of these Key nutrients mixed with pollen etc. in a feeder.

    I believe that even healthy bees could benefit... It just might even increase the honey production of a hive.

    Remember:- The chemical and pharaceutical companies control the government so you can take the results of any of their research with a pinch of salt.

    Anyone remember the true story of Lorenzo's oil. If we are to solve this problem I believe a change in focus may be necessary and that we may even need to do our own research and find our own solution.

    Who has the apiarists best interests at heart?

    Food for thought!

    Regards from downunder

    Noel
    Last edited by noelb; 05-20-2008 at 01:17 AM. Reason: spelling

  16. #36
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    I remember a lecture by the head of the Internal medicine Dept. at UC Davis Vet School where he difined death as "the sum total result of all the insults a body suffers during a lifetime." The CCD thing reminds me of the story of the straw that broke the camel's back. We submit our bees to so many things that they have not evolved to handle that it can be likened to that load of straw. If the hives are struggling with stresses A through Z, and one hive is handling stresses A,D,F,L,M,and T, but addition of stress V pushes it over the edge, while another hive handles stresses D,P,and M but succums when stress A is added, who can say which of these factors is lethal. Considering that any one of these factors could represent the straw that breaks the back, and that the number of combinations that could be tolerated until one more is added is incredably large, I think we may never find a single cause, or even a single combination of causes for CCD. I have a healthy respect for science but I think we may never have an answer. I expect that beekeeping will have to evolve the same way organisms evolve. The managemt programs that don't lead to large scale losses will produce beekeepers that stay in beekeeping. The management programs that cause CCD will die out as those of us who use them drop out of beekeeping or change what we do. We may never know exactly what is going wrong, but new beekeepers will learn from those who are successful and will limit what they do to their bees to what continues to work for them.
    doug

  17. #37
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    Doug, well said

  18. #38
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    > I have a healthy respect for science but I think we may
    > never have an answer.

    Why would anyone think that?

    Eloquent exposition aside, we have something pathogenic here,
    and it is causing a very specific disease with specific symptoms.

    Yes, it likely is not one single thing, but the latest Apiary Inspectors
    of America "report" lists a combination of:

    1) Nosema apis
    2) Nosema ceranae
    3) Kashmir and/or Deformed Wing Virus
    5) IAPV (even though this is clearly optional)

    Found at high correlation rates in colonies with CCD.

    But make no mistake, CCD is something that can spread from one
    hive to another, and this spreading has been watched multiple times
    amongst large number of hives, so this is not "stress" or "immune system"
    or any of the other alternative explanations offered. This is an
    exotic invasive disease pathogen or multiple pathogens, and they
    all come from across the oceans on all that World Trade that has
    turned our once-great nation into a pauper state.

  19. #39
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Bjornbee,

    Do you know of any commercial beekeepers who have been put out of business because of CCD? It seems to me that the guys who groused the most are still at it, somehow. I don't know of any growers who haven't gotten the bees that they needed. Do you?

    On another note. Do you know the NY Apiary Inspector from PA? Apparently the way to get around the rule about NYS Apiary Inspectors not owning bees is to live in and keep bees in another state.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  20. #40
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    Jul 2006
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    central fla usa
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    Sqkcrk,
    I know of one maybe two myself whom are no longer in business, one is from Pa.The way myself and a couple of friends I know closely ,some from your hood, have stayed in business speaking for myself was buy a semi load of bees ,equipment and tanker load + of feed and sign on the line for about $85,000 .00 more dollars to pay farm credit back in addition to original purchases of bees and equipment.Does that sound like a smoke and mirrors made up story?
    And for growers getting bees ,they still for the most part can find a lo balling bee renter most of the time,as for local growers.Almonds and blueberries are a little more of a sure thing.
    Where there are fruits and nuts there are beekeepers!!!

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