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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Brookings, Oregon USA
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    244

    Default Varroa--What to do now?

    I need some advice on what to do at this point. Back in the middle of August I treated my hive is Apistan and left in the hive for recomend period of time. Dead mites fell. I put screened bottom board on the hive about a month and a half ago with a slatted bottom board. About 5 days ago I noticed 3 dead bees outside of the hive with deformed wings. Yesterday a did a powdered sugar roll and within 6 hours I found 29 varroa on my plastic insert of the screened bottom board. They were various sizes & colors. Some were mix in the sugar and dead. Some were on top of the sugar and still alive (these I might add were redish in color). At this point I'm not sure what to do. November is right around the corner. Is it too late to treat with anything. Maybe EO's? I live in Brookings Oregon, about 7 miles from the ocean in a forested area, elevation about 500 ft. Girls are still flying and there are still drones around. I might add the hive is two deep and the girls are on large cell.

    Thanks for any and all help,

    Corinne

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default

    So you treated the hive with powdered sugar and had a post treatment drop of 29 mites. That's not much.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Brookings, Oregon USA
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    Default

    Thanks, Michael,
    I thought it was something I needed to concerned about at this point.

    Corinne

  4. #4
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    Evansville, IN, USA
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    Default

    >did a powdered sugar roll and within 6 hours I found 29 varroa on my plastic insert . . .

    Assuming the 29 mites found was CAUSED BY the treatment.
    It COULD mean that there was very few mites in the hive.
    It can ALSO mean that, for some reason the treatment DID NOT remove many mites.

    It's ALWAYS best to have (several) PRE-TREATMENT counts of NALURAL fall.
    Then, as you count several times AFTER treatment, you can then compare the before to the after to determine how many mites remain.

    AS it stand now, "we" dont know

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Brookings, Oregon USA
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    Default

    Thanks Dave,

    Appreciate your advice.

    Corinne

  6. #6
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    Aug 2007
    Location
    Knoxville, Tennessee,USA
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    Default

    Remember those 29 would have fallen through the screen for the treatment.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
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    2,475

    Default

    First of all, terminology: a sugar roll is when you take a sampling of bees from the hive place them in a jar, then add P-sugar to the jar and shake. What you indicate is that you did a powered sugar treatment of the entire hive and then counted mites that fell off immediately after the P-sugar treatment. OK, all that to say I strongly agree with Dave W. I'd further echo his statement that you really do not have conclusive proof either way on the status of the mites in your hive. Personally, I'd be concerned enough to do further monitoring until you can get a better natural mite drop count. Dead bees found with deformed wings is never a good sign and is "almost" always an indicator that mites are (or have been) present. Also note that deformed wings can sometimes look like shredded wings which are sometimes just a sign of old bees. What kind of mite drop did you have prior to and resulting from the strips back in August? If you don't know then chalk this up as a missed opportunity. One should always monitor mites prior to, during, and after treatments. Also, when relying exclusively on strips, you need to be aware that some mites have developed resistance to Apistan, which will make drop counts taken during treatment misleading.

    Too many unknowns to make definitive statements. Give us more data.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Brookings, Oregon USA
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    Default

    Thank you AstroBee for clarifying the difference between a sugar roll and p-sugar treatment of the hive for me. Yes, this will have to be chalked up as a missed opportunity. I do realize mites have developed resistance to Apistan. Although this was only the second time I had used them, resistance to the strips was the first thing that came to my mind when I saw the dead bees. I will continue to monitor and take samplings before, during, and after the next treatment. If you have any suggestions on what to use for treatment in spring I would appreciate the advice. Also when would one use a sugar roll? Wouldn't one receive the same results from a sugar roll and a p-sugar treatment? Are they used for the same purpose?

    Corinne

  9. #9
    Join Date
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default

    I'm with DaveW for any treatment, I want to know the fall before, during and after. That way I have something to compare.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  10. #10
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    Default

    >mites have developed resistance to Apistan . . .
    In some locales, SOME V-mites have developed resistance, but not ALL mites are resistant. You can and probable should test YOUR mites beforing using Fluvalinate, the chemical in Apistan (and other illegal stuff).

    >take samplings before, during, and after the next treatment . . .
    Please dont wait until "next treatment" to sample, DO IT NOW, all winter, next spring, next summer, next fall! I like to count mites

    >suggestions on what to use for treatment in spring . . .
    You may not need to treat in spring, BUT you want know if you dont have NUMBERS.

    >use a sugar roll . . .
    "Sugar roll" is a test method (not as good as NATURAL counts on a sticky board). You put bees and powdered sugar in a jar and "roll" them around to determine IF you have varroa mites.

    "Powder sugar" as a treatment, is applied over the frames of whole hive to REMOVE V-mites. If hive has a lot of mites, and the powdered sugar does a good job causing them to fall off the bees, you may have hundreds of mites on the sticky-board.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Brookings, Oregon USA
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    Default

    Okay I'll continue to take samples now, all winter, spring and next summer.

    >You may not need to treat in spring, BUT you want know if you dont have NUMBERS.
    So what would the critical numbers be and during what period of time? And if they are too high lets say in January what should I do? Or would they even be high during the winter months? Does the mite ever sleep? Right now I have the plastic insert to my screened bottom board covered with oil and in place. I will check this evening. Maybe regressing the bees to small cell would be a better bet. But you would still have to treat the hive until the girls get to where they sould be correct?

    Corinne

  12. #12
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    Evansville, IN, USA
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    Default

    >too high lets say in January . . .
    In January, a "very liberal allowance" would be about .5 mites per 24 hrs.
    (about 5 mites over a 10 day collection period = .5 m/24 hrs.)

    In Feb, if count increase to 1 (or higher) you may need to treat then.
    By March, a count of 2 and in April, 4 would mean "control" is very much needed.

    Varroa never sleep , but winter natural fall number are alway much lower than summer.

    >I will check this evening . . .
    I dont mean to imply that you need to counts mites EVERY DAY
    From now til early spring, once a month clean off sticky board, re-insert and leave for about 5 to 10 days, then count the fallen mites. In spring and during summer, leave the stick board in place for only 3 day, so that debris doesnt build up to a point where you cant see/find the mites. In winter there is less debris.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Leetonia, Ohio
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    389

    Default

    Dave W

    Are you saying u count mites all winter long in your locale or in golddust twins locale. Just curious, can't remember anyone ever saying they count mites in the winter also (in the north)

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Evansville, IN, USA
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    MITE COUNTS - 2003
    Apr 12 – Installed 3# Package
    Jun 1 – 0
    Jun 9 – First Mite
    Jun 25 – 5
    Jul 27 – 14
    Aug 7 – 21
    Aug 18 – Apistan IN
    Oct 5 – Apistan OUT
    Oct 20 – 11
    Nov 20 – 12
    Nov 21 – 14
    Nov 22 – 16
    Nov 30 – 3.3 (26/8)

    MITE COUNTS – 2004
    Jan 2 – 5 (170/34)
    Feb 6 – 1.2 (41/35)
    Mar 11 – 8.3 (25/3)
    Apr 2 – 4.6 (23/5)
    Apr 15 – 6.8 (75/12)
    Apr 18 – 22.7 (68/3)
    Apr 21 – 32.7 (98/3)
    May 9 – 10.5 (157/15)
    May 12 – 14.0 (42/3)
    May 27 – 53
    Jun 15 – 94
    Jul 7 – 108
    Jul 12 – Apistan IN
    7/13 – 1,444
    7/14 – 814
    7/15 – 943
    7/16 – 984
    7/17 – 834
    7/18 – 769
    7/19 – 971
    7/20 – 905 (29white)
    7/21 – 797 (55w)
    7/22 – 726 (18w)
    7/23 – 831 (30w)
    7/24 – 1033 (36w)
    7/25 – 939 (13w)
    7/26 – 441 (15w)
    7/27 – 368 (14w)
    7/28 – 270 (7w)
    7/29 – 124 (2w)
    7/30 – 114 (8w)
    7/31 – 157 (12w)
    8/1 – 102 (5w)
    8/2 – 77 (6w)
    8/3 – 88 (5w)
    8/6 – 93.3 (280/3) 5w
    8/7 – 62 (5w)
    8/8 – 45 (1w)
    8/9 – 70 (0w)
    8/10 – 49 (3w)
    8/11 – 68 (4w)
    8/12 – 54 (5w)
    8/13 – 67 (3w)
    8/14 – 61 (5w)
    8/15 – 62 (4w)
    8/16 – 53 (1w)
    8/17 – 77 (0w)
    8/18 – 109 (3w)
    8/19 – 85 (1w)
    8/20 – 86 (1w)
    8/21 – 90 (4w)
    8/22 – 89 (1w)
    8/23 – 93 (2w)
    8/24 – 69 (0w)
    Aug 24 – Apistan OUT
    Aug 25 – 41 (1w)
    Aug 26 – 37
    Aug 27 – 48
    Aug 29 – 44
    Aug 30 – 28
    Aug 31 – 33
    Sep 8 – 34.3 (103/3)
    Sep 12 – 31.6 (127/4)
    Sep 26 – 109.5 (219/2)
    Sep 27 – 73
    Sep 30 – 83.3 (250/3)
    Oct 1 – Oxalic Acid Vapor
    Oct 2 – 91 (182/2)
    Oct 3 – 69
    Oct 4 – 136
    Oct 5 – 123
    Oct 6 – 107
    Oct 7 – 138
    Oct 8 – 126
    Oct 9 – 130
    Oct 9 – Oxalic Acid Vapor
    Oct 10 – 134
    Oct 11 – 140
    Oct 12 – 134
    Oct 13 – 83
    Oct 16 – 20
    Oct 22 – 26 (78/3)
    Oct 30 – 42.5 (340/8)
    Oct 31 – 64
    Nov 5 – 100.6 (503/5)
    Nov 7 – 73.5 (147/2)
    Nov 8 – 52
    Nov 20 – 71
    Nov 21 – 41.4 (455/12)
    Dec 3 – 29
    Dec 18 – 19.8 (298/15)
    Dec 29 – 7
    Dec 31 – 36.7 (73/2)

    MITE COUNTS – 2005
    Jan 7 – 15.0 (105/7)
    Jan 21 – 9.6 (134/14)
    Feb 4 – 16.6 (232/14) 9white
    Feb 11 – 12.4 (87/7) 4w
    Feb 18 – 12.4 (87/7) 0w
    Feb 24 – 10.6 (64/6) 2w
    Mar 4 – 25.0 (200/8) 5w
    Mar 4 – First Sucrocide, Lift & Spray
    Mar 7 – 64.6 (194/3) 5w
    Mar 10 – 26.7 (80/3) 3w
    Mar 14 – 29.5 (118/4) 6w
    Mar 19 – 43.6 (218/5) 2w
    Mar 21 – 48.0 (96/2) 2w
    Mar 21 – Sucrocide #2, Lift & Spray
    Mar 25 – 34.8 (139.4) 2w
    Mar 25 – Sucrocide #3
    Mar 29 – 52.5 (210/4) 4w
    Mar 29 – Sucrocide #4, Lift & spray
    Apr 3 – 46.6 (233/5) 8w
    Apr 5 – Sucrocide #5, Lift & Spray
    Apr 8 – 39.0 (195/5) 2w
    Apr 17 – 11.8 (106/9) 1w
    Apr 22 – 23.8 (119/5) 2w
    Apr 29 – 23.1 (162/7) 2w
    May 6 – 35.6 (249/7) 0w
    May 20 – 52.9 (370/7) 3w (3,538 Y-T-D)
    May 27 – 52.9 (370/7) 3w F52%, N63%

    Jun 6 – 67.6 (473/7) 3w F48%, N54%
    Jun 10 – 71.4 (500/7) 7w F50%, N50%
    Jun 17 – 90.6 (634/7) 13w F56%, N55%
    Jun 24 – 81.9 (573/7) 15w F57%, N46%
    Jul 1 – 117.9 (825/7) 20w F54%, N48%
    Jul 8 – 56.1 (393/7) 6w F76%, N48%
    Jul 15 – 33.7 (236/7) 4w F59%, N51%
    Jul 22 – 78.7 (551/7) 6w F60%, N60%
    Jul 29 – 124.4 (871/7) 10w F50%, N55%
    Jul 30 – Sucrocide, Spray-down
    Aug 1 – 74.4 (224/3) 21w F60%, N63%
    Aug 5 – 100.3 (401/4) 29w F55%, N38%
    Aug 12 – 170.9 (1,196/7) 50w F51%, N67%
    Aug 12 – Sucrocide, Spray-down
    Aug 19 – 137.1 (960/7) 15w F50%, N66%
    Aug 23 – 206.3 (825/4) 45w F45%, N69%
    Aug 26 – 221.0 (663/3) 54w F59%, N42%
    Sep 2 – 221.0 (1,477/7) 60w F50%, N37%
    Sep 5 – Sucrocide, Spray-down
    Sep 9 – 190.1 (1,331/7) 72w F62%, N54%
    Sep 14 – Sucrocide, Spray-down
    Sep 16 – 207.8 (1,455/7) 51w F57%, N70%
    Sep 23 – 210.0 (1,470/7) 51w F54%, N38%
    Sep 30 – 235.0 (1,645/7) 70w F61%, N44%
    Oct 7 – 197.7 (1,370/7) 73w F69%, N66%
    Oct 13 – 117.7 (706/6) 61w F59%, N37%
    Oct 21 – 152.1 (1,217/8) 59w F62%, N17%
    Oct 28 - 54.7 (383/7) 17w F70%, N32%
    Nov 4 - 39.0 (273/7) 7w F78% N39%
    Nov 11 - 46.9 (328/7) 8w F64% N36%
    Nov 18 - 10.1 (71/7) 0w F77% N38%
    Nov 25 - 6.9 (48/7) 2w F90% N40%
    Dec 2 - 5.1 (36/7) 0w F92% N36%
    Dec 11 - 1.1 (10/9) 0w F100% N40%
    Dec 17 - 1.1 (7/6) 0w F86% N57%
    Dec 23 - 1.5 (9/6) 0w F100% N22%
    Dec 30 - 0.4 (3/7) 0w F100% N100%
    TOTAL MITES REMOVED (Jan-Dec 05) = 25,072

    MITE COUNTS – 2006
    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...c&f=3&t=000642

    Jan 8 - 1.6 (14/9) 0w F71% N36%
    Jan 16 - 0.5 (8/4) 0w F100% N50%
    Jan 29 - 0.2 (3/13) 0w F100% N100%

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Brookings, Oregon USA
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    244

    Default

    Well Dave W - I've been counting mites. I can see by your last post one has better knowledge and control of what goes on in the hive if one counts. So .....

    10/27/07 29 mites This count was 6 hours after powder sugar treatment
    10/30/07 83 mites
    10/31/07 28 mites 15 minutes after this count I put grease patty with wintergreen on top frames and added sugar syrup with wintergreen for feeding.

    11/1/07 64 mites
    11/2/07 76 mites

    We'll keep counting here.

    Corinne
    Last edited by golddust-twins; 11-02-2007 at 10:04 PM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Evansville, IN, USA
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    Default

    >I can see by your last post one has better knowledge and control of what goes on in the hive if one counts . . .
    You are very wise . I wish I had that insight.

    >We'll keep counting . . .
    Thanx

    Keep counting AND KEEP RECORDS!

    Years from now , you can review those records and THEN begin to learn .
    Last edited by Dave W; 11-03-2007 at 09:00 AM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Brookings, Oregon USA
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    244

    Default

    Dave W

    We are still counting here and will contunue everyday until the weather gets real nasty. This is an important discipline to learn -- I didn't realize how improtant...Thank You for making me see (your posted mite count did it). My bees are close to home and it really doesn't take that much time to do. Something I have noticed, on warmer days the mite drop count goes up.

    THE 7 DISCIPLINES OF BEEKEEPING
    1--Learn to count mites
    2--Count mites
    3--Continue to count mites
    4--Record mite count
    5--Count mites
    6--Contunue to count mites
    7--Review recorded mite count.......

    Thanks
    Corinne

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