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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    Tulsa, OK
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    3,409

    Default My definition

    By "tolerant" or "restistance", I just mean that the bees and the mites (or beetles or larvae or virus or germs or skunks or mean kids who throw rocks or whatever it is) can co-exist with the hive not dying and making an amount of honey that makes the project financially viable to people who are in it for the money.

    I think mites are here to stay, and it's unreasonable to expect them to evolve to eliminate or have total immunity. The question is whether the bees can have some mites and still do their thing.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    45,427

    Default

    I have lost a lot of chickens over the last few years to coyotes and foxes. I had quite an assortment of breeds. The only ones that survived until now are the Araucanas. I think coyotes are a definite external "parasite" of the chickens (predator of course, not parasite) and yet they have behavior that has protected them from these predators. Obviously animals DO have behavior that can protect them that is genetically transmitted to their offspring. The chickens lacking in those genetics are now gone.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #23
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    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    Default

    ya, but Micheal, your talking about different lines of breeds of chickens, unlike what I am talking about with bees,

    You cant possibly mark hygenic bees as being related to certain lines of breeding.

    I also raise chickens, and find the exact same observation you are seeing with your free range.
    I tell you, my coyotes sure have it easy some years!
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,786

    Default

    Micheal,
    How would you discribe small cell beekeeping as, in respect to the bees ability to adapt to the mites?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Boone County, West Virginia, USA
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    908

    Default

    keick, by your logic,

    >"Resistance" attempts to avoid colonization or feeding by a pest.
    >"Tolerance" attempts to reduce damage to the plant despite colonization or >feeding by a pest.

    my vote goes to "resistance", especially if they are successful in their attempt.
    even if both are successful in their attempt, i'd rather have the one that avoids it entirely than the one that reduces damage. in this scenario, you have damaged goods and non-damaged goods. having either of these is better than having neither.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Volga, SD
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    2,790

    Default

    WVbeekeeper --

    The problem lies in the pests overcoming the resistance. In wheat curl mites (differnt family than Varroa, but still mites), researchers at Kansas State University found that the mites developed "resistance to the resistance," if you will, that had been bred into wheat plants in as little as 60 days or eight generations. Assuming the same speed -- or even close to it -- of overcoming resistance in honey bees by Varroa, beekeepers will be faced with the same challenge: constantly "finding" and breeding new mechanisms of resistance to keep the bees ahead of the mites.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Boone County, West Virginia, USA
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    908

    Default

    a resistance to the resistances to the resistance to the.... WILL THE MADNESS EVER END?!!! sound like a never ending game of rock paper scissors. i don't know how a mite will get around good grooming behavior. maybe they could turn invisible, become weightless, and scent free so the bees can't detect them. and maybe they can figure out how to make a mite damaged pupa have the odor of a healthy pupa so it doesn't get thrown out. they might recruit david blane or chris angel to help them perform these illusions. i don't think the mites would want to associate with david copperfield since he is being investigated by the fbi and i know those mites don't want the fbi after them. all joking aside, remember we are talking about HONEYBEES and their pests not wheat plants and their pests. big difference here. with this type of correlation you might as well compare a mite to an asteroid and the bee to a planet. oh no wait, that would be an example of tolerance. a planet might tolerate the smaller asteroids impacting it, but could break apart from the larger ones.
    i will keep resistant bees and you can keep tolerant bees if you choose. if my hives crashes frokm mites, i'll bring the mites to you to see how well your tolerant bees hold up to a mite that gets past a resistance to them. VIVA LA RESISTANCE!!!!

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Columbia, South Carolina USA
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    2,598

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    You cant possibly mark hygenic bees as being related to certain lines of breeding.

    Why not?

    Keith "I need more letters" Benson
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    Columbia, South Carolina USA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WVbeekeeper View Post
    all joking aside, remember we are talking about HONEYBEES and their pests not wheat plants and their pests. big difference here.
    The mechanisms are often different, but the principles are the same. What makes honeybees so differnet from other life forms for you?

    Keith
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  10. #30
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    Dec 2005
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    Volga, SD
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    Default

    i don't know how a mite will get around good grooming behavior. -WVbeekeeper
    Look back to Michael Bush's example about chickens. We don't have to know how it will happen to make it likely that it will happen.

    The mechanisms are often different, but the principles are the same. -Keith Benson
    Well stated.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default

    >ya, but Micheal, your talking about different lines of breeds of chickens, unlike what I am talking about with bees

    The point is that the behavior appears to be genetic (since only one breed seems to survive) rather than just luck. If it's genetic, then you can breed for it and, in fact, if the threat is fatal, reality will breed for it if you don't intervene.

    >You cant possibly mark hygenic bees as being related to certain lines of breeding.

    But you can develop a line of bees that is hygienic. That was proven by O.W. Park in 1937.

    >How would you discribe small cell beekeeping as, in respect to the bees ability to adapt to the mites?

    The bees already adapted to the mites. If you let them, they build cells the size they should to shorten their brood cycle to what it should be to cut back on the reproductive capabilities of the mites. They also appear to have more hygienic behavior as a result, but that's harder to measure.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  12. #32
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    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    Default

    Thanks Micheal,
    Chow
    Last edited by Ian; 10-19-2007 at 07:41 PM.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  13. #33
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    Feb 2003
    Location
    lewisberry, Pa, usa
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    6,080

    Default

    ................

  14. #34
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    Jun 2007
    Location
    Boone County, West Virginia, USA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Benson View Post
    The mechanisms are often different, but the principles are the same. What makes honeybees so differnet from other life forms for you?

    Keith
    mainly they don't grow roots into the ground and don't stay in one place. they rely on plants for nourishment but plant don't rely on them for their nourishment. i haven't been able to get them to sit or roll over, but they sure fetch nectar and pollen pretty good. they don't weigh up to five tons like an elephant, but each have a proboscis. they don't shed their skin through their adult life and have limbs unlike a snake, but they both have scales and defend themselves with venom.

  15. #35
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    Feb 2003
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    Columbia, South Carolina USA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WVbeekeeper View Post
    mainly they don't grow roots into the ground and don't stay in one place. they rely on plants for nourishment but plant don't rely on them for their nourishment. i haven't been able to get them to sit or roll over, but they sure fetch nectar and pollen pretty good. they don't weigh up to five tons like an elephant, but each have a proboscis. they don't shed their skin through their adult life and have limbs unlike a snake, but they both have scales and defend themselves with venom.
    And how do any of these things mean that the principles of adaptation would not necessarily apply to them?

    Keith
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
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    5,300

    Default Tolerance, Resistance, Vigor, Strength, Adaptation, etc.

    Doesn't matter to me what it is called or by what techniques it is brought into effect, other than chemicals or chemical compounds that most of us would not like mixed with our food.

    What matters to me is that my bees stay alive, even better they often thrive, best is that when or if I harvest any honey I won't be harvesting any toxic stuff that I was directly responsible for.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Cleveland, Texas
    Posts
    1,378

    Default My Observations, for what its worth

    I have found that a combination of IPM and SMR seems to work very well. Is it possible that this combines both tolerance and resistance? Seems to me you need both. Tolerance to mitigate the effect on the bees of the reality/inevitablilty of the infestation. Resistance is needed to keep the population of the pests down to a tolerable level.

    The first year I kept bees, my package supplier told me that between the mites and the SHB, he was on the verge of going out of business. Despite my efforts, all the packages I purchased from him succumbed to SHB infestation. Since then I have been using a combination IPM (SBB, small/natural cells, plastic fully drawn comb, etc.) with SMR bees. I have not lost a single hive to SHB or mites and I don't use any form of chemical treatment. As for mites, I have seen a few, but I have never observed a single bee with DWV, does not mean there were none, only that it is down to a level that I could not observe it. As for the SHB, some of my bees keep the adult SHB isolated in one area in the hive. Others seem to keep their hives nearly free of them. None of them allow the SHB to have free roam over the comb like the bees I lost my first year.

    I have done a lot of feral cutouts this year, I have noticed similar SHB response in the feral colonies as well. That is some of them had a a lot of adult SHB, but kept them isolated, others I saw only a very few adult SHB (could count them on one hand).

    I have watched the bees with the low SHB count, and I see them actually carry the adult beetles out of the hive. Either way it seems that a behavior has developed that requires a percentage of the workers be devoted to SHB control. Since part of our goal is to have enough workers so as to allow an excess of honey stores, one key necessity seems to be that the hive is headed by a highly fecund queen.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Boone County, West Virginia, USA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Benson View Post
    And how do any of these things mean that the principles of adaptation would not necessarily apply to them?

    Keith
    you should have asked that to begin with. i'm sure if the mite can adapt the bee can too.

    i'd still like to know what this means,
    >...that had been bred into wheat plants in as little as 60 days or eight generations.

    i must not be reading it right cause it sounds like you have a new generation of wheat plant every 7.5 days. sorry if i'm being dense.

  19. #39
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    Dec 2005
    Location
    Volga, SD
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    Default

    I likely didn't state that as clearly as I should.

    Plant breeders deliberatly have attempted to breed lines of wheat that are resistant to the wheat curl mites (i.e., the mites are unable to survive or reproduce on these wheat plants).

    Starting with those lines of resistant wheat, researchers infested the mite-resistant wheat plants with wheat curl mites. At first, almost all of the mites on the resistant plants died. However, the adaptations that allowed the surviving mites to feed on the resistant plants spread through the population rapidly, and 60 days after infestation (eight generations of mites, less than one generation of plants), the resistant plants were as heavily colonized by wheat curl mites as the control ("non-resistant") plants.

    The 7.5-day average generation time is for the mites, not the wheat plants.

    Also to clarify: this was a greenhouse experiment under controlled circumstances. This experiment does not mean that host resistance will be overcome within such a short period of time, only that such adaptation may arise and spread rapidly.

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