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  1. #1
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    Oct 2003
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    Jenison, MI
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    Default Apiguard killing pupae???

    Yesterday I pulled the last of my honey off. I took all of the supers off, leaving each hive with the 2 deeps (6 hives). At that time, I gave each hive a treatment of Apiguard, from the tub (not the pre-measured). I have a super of partially capped honey that I will give back to each hive once the treatment is complete.

    Temperature yesterday was up to 90F. I applied the Apiguard at around 12-1pm.

    Mite load is medium to heavy, with some DWV.

    This morning I quickly pulled the tray on the SBB on two of my hives, and was shocked to find the first covered with a layer of pupae parts. And plenty of mites (not a suprise). The hive next to it had pupae body parts too, but much fewer. I only had a cursory look at the SBB tray.

    I know it can stop a queen from laying, but would Apiguard kill brood (the documentation says not until it is in the 100's F), and if it would, it seems like capped pupae would be the last to die.

    Or... could it trigger some hygiene thing where they chew out the ones they know are infected? Or is it related to me removing some stores, although I don't think they'd attack pupae in that case?

    I'll check the hives out when I get home from work to see what the insides look like, but if you have any insight or similar experience, I'd appreciate your thoughts.

    Rick

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Wheatfield, IN
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    2,069

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScadsOBees View Post
    Yesterday I pulled the last of my honey off. I took all of the supers off, leaving each hive with the 2 deeps (6 hives). At that time, I gave each hive a treatment of Apiguard, from the tub (not the pre-measured). I have a super of partially capped honey that I will give back to each hive once the treatment is complete.

    Temperature yesterday was up to 90F. I applied the Apiguard at around 12-1pm.

    Mite load is medium to heavy, with some DWV.

    This morning I quickly pulled the tray on the SBB on two of my hives, and was shocked to find the first covered with a layer of pupae parts. And plenty of mites (not a suprise). The hive next to it had pupae body parts too, but much fewer. I only had a cursory look at the SBB tray.

    I know it can stop a queen from laying, but would Apiguard kill brood (the documentation says not until it is in the 100's F), and if it would, it seems like capped pupae would be the last to die.

    Or... could it trigger some hygiene thing where they chew out the ones they know are infected? Or is it related to me removing some stores, although I don't think they'd attack pupae in that case?

    I'll check the hives out when I get home from work to see what the insides look like, but if you have any insight or similar experience, I'd appreciate your thoughts.

    Rick
    I tried it on 20 hives and 5 packed 5-frame med nucs all with mite issues. To be fair I didn't know how to measure it out to the nucs and tried to use a very small amount. All 5 completely absconded leaving brood behind. I split the frames of brood up between 3 hives and 2 nucs. The other 2 nucs ended up with only a handful of bees and within a couple of days they too were gone. Some of the brood hatched but most was dead. The addition of frames to the large colonies seemed not to have any affect. They promptly cleaned out the larvae and layed with fresh eggs.

    In all of the full size hives the queens stopped laying initially. Any larvae/sealed brood directly under the Apiguard was completely removed. All hives but 2 had brand new queens that had just started laying. With the application of Apiguard 4 of the 20 colonies went queenless confirmed by adding a frame of eggs to which they began drawing out emergency cells. The rest of the queens have resumed laying.

    I carefully measured the dosage for the full size colonies. I did not see any absconding in them but it did impact brood/larvae and halted egg laying for a few days. I also got a good mite drop but at what expense?

    I won't be using Apiguard again.
    Dan Williamson
    B&C Honey Farm http://www.flickr.com/photos/9848229@N05/

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
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    2,542

    Default

    Scads,

    There's an interesting article in this months ABJ by Randy Oliver that talks the impact on brood when using Apiguard. Basically he reported similar finding to what you mentioned.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Murphy, NC, USA
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    67

    Default

    I just started treatment with Apiguard 2 days ago. I will be keeping an eye on them to see what's happening.

    I did find this article on the use of Apiguard....

    http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/fol...?FolderID=5208
    Last edited by nc_beekeeper; 09-04-2007 at 01:39 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    Jenison, MI
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    Default

    Thanks for the replies...
    I used it in the spring as well, and didn't see anything like this, although I was using the premeasured dosages, and the temps were only in the mid-60's.

    I'll double check them tonight to make sure that they are alright, and double check that article.

    Rick

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Princeton, West Virginia
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    478

    Default

    I had planned on waiting until after it cools down to start my treatments.
    After our normal killing frost date, still leaves enough time for the proper treatment before cold weather sets in.
    What I Smoke has a Sting to it

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Heavener Oklahoma
    Posts
    928

    Default Stores

    If you have taken of there honey watch there stores left in the hive. They will eat it up very fast

    They don't like the vapors and fan a lot needing More honey for energy the nuc I used They had plenty of honey until I treated about 5 days after the first treatment there was hardly any stores left in the nuc. I did 25 MH and about 7 of them left.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    Jenison, MI
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    Default

    Ok, read the ABJ article. It had been sitting on my counter for a week. Dumb me...should have gotten to it a couple days sooner...

    Yup, I see what you are seeing, Dan, with the capped brood,they chew the pupae out. Randy Oliver says that it should subside within the first day or so. I did see a fair number of immature mites on the SBB tray though.

    In the article, there is also the recommendation to do 3 - half treatments weekly instead of 2 full treatments bi-weekly.

    I just put back a super of honey on each of them. I figure a little extra space will give them a bit more room for the thymol subliming and not quite so stressful.

    I think that the higher temperature is quite stressful, but apparently it is also at the lower temps, so maybe not.

    I wish that they would put something in the directions more than "the queen may stop laying"....

    Thanks for the input!!

    Rick

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Red Bluff, Ca
    Posts
    301

    Default From Max Watkins to B-line

    In hot conditions (ie above 77 ºF) we have been recommending 2 x 25g
    Apiguard and possibly 3 x 25g for high infestation levels. This was shown by
    studies run by Frank Eischen and by Eric Mussen. Also borne out by our
    earlier experience using Apiguard in hot countries such as Morocco, Algeria,
    Southern Italy and France; at higher temperatures a 2 or 3 x 25g regime with
    Apiguard can give the same high efficacy results as with a 2 x 50g dosing.
    So no point in using a higher dose * less cost and better for the bees. We
    recommend to switch the dosing according to the temperature and we have this
    in our FAQ sheet. Label amendment is with the EPA.


    The scoop is slightly oversized; shouldn’t be, as we buy it as an
    off-the-shelf item and is supposed to deliver the exact dose. We are looking
    for alternatives at the moment. The slight overdosing shouldn’t affect the
    bees but at high temperatures, the dose should in any case be reduced to 25g
    (roughly half a scoop) per colony.

    All the best,

    Max
    Dr Max Watkins

    Director

    Vita (Europe) Limited

    21/23 Wote Street

    Basingstoke

    Hampshire RG21 7NE

    UK
    Dan

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    surrey uk
    Posts
    33

    Wink

    Hi all

    We have had Api Gaurd In the U.K for some time and it has proved effective, it does knock some Queens out of lay for a short period but not all.

    Api Gaurd will encourage cleaning in the hive and is usefull against some minor problems like Chalk Brood.

    I have had problems with nuc's in poly boxes in the past and had some abscond, but with some practice and lower doses in these small hives it works. As with all of these volatiles success will vary. Close your mesh floors if you have them, it's also very temp dependant

    Many in the U.K are treating early in the Autumn, early treatments may mean you miss a Autumn flow but the temps are right and you are protecting those all important young bees essential for good Wintering. It's pointless treating a hive late if the majority of young Wintering bees are already suffering, hives will just dwindle. Beekeeping practices will have to change in some respects and if you are not up to date and adaptable your bees will suffer. Our Autumn/fall flows are small compared to yours but some of the specialist beeks that go for Heather take specific hives built up and pre-treated. I have been giving this a go and am having few mite problems, it's time to adapt!!!

    With Api Gaurd back it up with Oxalic in the Winter, and in an ideal world it should say that on the box!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These 2 methods work very well in partnership.
    And if as yet there is not approval for Oxalic I suggest you bleach a lot of hives in Winter as we in the U.K had to do untill recently!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Never leave honey on when treating the thymol will make it taste CARP!!!!!


    Regards Ian

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,322

    Default application method

    Is it possible to put the gel between the boxes in a double? If not does it only work properly on the top bars of the upper box with a rim?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Jenison, MI
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    Default

    jlyon,
    In Randy Oliver's article in the ABJ, some beeks say it is more effective between boxes. However, in my case, it seems that they would chew out twice as much brood if I had tried that...I don't know. Either way it needs a small spacer rim.

    It is nice to see the 1/2 doseage recommendations coming out...although they cleaned up a full dose in 2 days.

    Rick

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lewisberry, Pa, usa
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    6,080

    Default

    kc, states...

    >>>>I had planned on waiting until after it cools down to start my treatments.
    After our normal killing frost date, still leaves enough time for the proper treatment before cold weather sets in.<<<<<

    Define proper treatment? Are you talking about label instructions?

    If your talking what the chemical companies want, in regards to their testing criteria, and exposure to liability, and what was needed to get the stuff approved....ok, I could see that.

    If your talking "proper" treatments in keeping bees alive...I don't agree at all. Treatments need to be done before the damage is done to your fall brood cycle and to the bees that will carry your hive into spring. Waiting till the first frost, weeks from now, will no doubt kill mites. But if the impact of mites have already done their damage, your wasting your money.

    I would take treatment with some brood loss, and the bees being able to recoup losses and raise healthy bees after treatments, instead of treatments after the damage is done so late in the year.

    I think (and many others including MAAREC, Dewey C, and many others) treatments prior to the fall brood cycle is important. Yes, some treatments are questionable or might need to take such time frames into consideration. But any treatment prior to the fall cycle is better than any treatment after the cycle is over.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Princeton, West Virginia
    Posts
    478

    Default

    [QUOTE=BjornBee;260751]

    But if the impact of mites have already done their damage, your wasting your money.

    I would take treatment with some brood loss, and the bees being able to recoup losses and raise healthy bees after treatments, instead of treatments after the damage is done so late in the year. [QUOTE]

    BjornBee

    I see your point on the brood damage going into fall.

    I have been using powdered sugar dusting regularly all summer, watching mite counts, checking drone brood and watching for signs of mite infestation. At the present I only have one hive with an unacceptable count and no DWV noticeable. For me I don't like to use the chemicals unless other means have failed.

    This is my first year using Apiguard. I did treat 4 hives in a small yard in the spring (at cooler temperatures)and was happy with the results.

    Have you tried the the reduced treatment regimen suggested by an earlier post?
    What I Smoke has a Sting to it

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Thurmont, MD
    Posts
    196

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScadsOBees View Post
    I just put back a super of honey on each of them. I figure a little extra space will give them a bit more room for the thymol subliming and not quite so stressful.
    Mmmm... honey & Apiguard!

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    surrey uk
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Hi all


    Having used Api Gaurd for a while and had resistant mites to the normal chemicals(Apistan) Bjorn has just sumed it all up perfectly, incuding the early Autumn treatments.

    Used in partnership with Oxalic in the Winter you will achieve as clean a start to the new season that you can get.

    Out of 100+ hives we have lost only a handfull over the last few Winters.


    Regards Ian

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Jenison, MI
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    Default

    Mmmm... honey & Apiguard!
    Honey for them for winter...not for me... On the otherhand, it might be more pleasant to gargle with than listerine...

  18. #18
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    Jan 2007
    Location
    surrey uk
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    33

    Default

    Hi Scads


    Trust me on this one it really does taste BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Regards Ian

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Thurmont, MD
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    Default

    Rick... I'll take Ian's word for it.. Hope everything works out for the best.. Ken

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    Jenison, MI
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    Default

    Hmmm...ferment out the thymol honey and that is listerine?

    I trust you on it...I have plenty of really good honey right now so I don't need theirs.

    The bees seem to be calming down a lot. I wish they didn't have so many mites, but I sure enjoy seeing them all dead.... The 1 deep hives are still hanging outside, but they've been doing that all summer to varying extents.

    Rick

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