Results 1 to 16 of 16
  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pickens, SC, USA
    Posts
    233

    Default Quick salt question...

    I am going to make grease patties:

    4# granulated sugar
    3 oz corn oil
    1 1/2 pounds of Crisco
    1 pound honey
    2 oz plus 1 tsp wintergreen oil
    1/2 pound of mineral salt (pink)

    When I went to the feed store I knew what I wanted but the lady there got me confused. I planned to get the sheep minerals (so I could give the extras to my goats) - instead I ended up with "mixing salt". Is there a real difference for this purpose ? The mixing salt will have a much stronger concentration of salt - I dont want to put the wrong thing in my hive !

    charlotte

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lewisberry, Pa, usa
    Posts
    6,080

    Default

    I thought it was the smell of crisco that confused the t-mites, making them unable to smell the difference between nurse bees and others.

    And I can see the wintergreen oil, as the smell interfers with the queens pheromones. And the bees seem to go to greater grooming/hygienic behavior patterns to eliminate the foriegn smell. Thus a secondary v-mite benefit.

    But the other ingredients have me perplexed.

    Patties should remain in the hive as long as possible. The honey would seem to just speed up the comsumption of the patty. I never thought that was important.

    I never heard of corn oil as a necessary thing. And although I have read reports about trace amounts of salt, a half cup seems like more than a trace.

    I'm old scool on patties. Crisco and sugar. Perhaps with some oil, but I usually don't add it.

    Charlotte,
    I don't want to hijack your question and discussion. But I'm not up on the latest patty information. And maybe this thread will kill two birds so to speak.

    BTW, What does sheep minerals have?

    Thanks Charlotte.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pickens, SC, USA
    Posts
    233

    Default

    This list of items came from the local beekeepers association. I think it is originally from VA Tech but dont quote me on that.

    It calls for "mineral salt" pink color like you buy in feed stores. Goats and sheep are alot alike in feed and medications that can be fed. Some things in horse feed for example you shouldnt give to goats - hence my use of the term "sheep minerals" but basically I am talking about just plain old livestock minerals with salt.

    If I can scan the doc I will put some of the text here.... ok..

    GREASE PATTY FORMULA (Revised 2004)
    1.4 Pounds of Granulated Sugar (sucrose)
    2.3 Ounces of com oil
    3. 11/2 Pounds of vegetable shortening (Crisco)
    4.1 Pound of honey .
    5. 2 Ounces plus 1 tsp. of Wintergreen oil. )
    6. 1/2 Pound of Mineral Salt (Pink color) approx. $8.00 for 50 # from feed stores.
    Mix all ingredients thoroughly. Note: If the mixture is too thin, add more sugar, and if too thick, add honey until it is like the dough for canned biscuits from the grocery store. It should be easily molded into patties.
    NOTE: The Colonies must be treated using this system (BEFORE) mite populations reach injury level to the colony. Once the colonies reach parasitic mite syndrome (deformed wings), they will not consume enough of the patties to do any good, however; we are showing an increase in housecleaning debris so we think the fumes from this concentration of winter-green may be killing mites inside the cells through the caps and the bees are attempting to remove everything related to the smell. The bees themselves are apparently not affected. When feeding the patties, use two 5 ounce patties between the supers. Separate them so they overlap the normal ends of the cluster. This allows normal movement above the center of the brood cluster. This strength Wintergreen oil has been found to kill small hive beetles en masse. However, beetle populations are directly related to varroa-mite infestation so controlling varroa is the dominant requirement. In summer, we are using a screened bottom board (8 mesh hdwe cloth) AND a screened top in place of an inner cover. The hives are placed in fall sun to discourage SHB. When using a top screen, be sure that the outer cover gives3/8 inch unrestricted (visible from side) airflow (does not reach down to the level of the super or the bees may propolize the screen.) Colony populations explode when they have enough ventilation. A nice experience is to lift the outer cover of a hive and look in on totally calm bees in the top of the super. If you then see any hive beetles on the top of the screen trying to enter the hive, you need to accept that you have some varroa build-up in progress and monitoring varroa is necessary.
    Note: Wintergreen oil in excess of 500 parts per million gives a 50% kill of the bees. (50 LD) is the term used to signify 50% toxicity. The above mix is approximately 225 ppm.

    I'm sure there is alot of debate about which method is best but my main interest today is does it matter "exactly" which salt you use.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
    Posts
    2,574

    Default

    Charlotte,

    Sorry, you asked a simple salt question, but I have other issues with the post. There are some statements in your write-up that I've never heard of before.

    1) "winter-green may be killing mites inside the cells through the caps"

    2) "This strength Wintergreen oil has been found to kill small hive beetles en masse."

    3) "However, beetle populations are directly related to varroa-mite infestation so controlling varroa is the dominant requirement."

    Do you know the basis for these claims?? Having lived with both SHB and varroa for a while now, I'm very suspect of the claims being made in this write-up. I have never observed a direct correlation between SHB and varroa. Sure, if a hive is about to colapse due to varroa then of course SHB are going to take advantage of it, but just because you're carrying a high load of SHB doesn't imply that you also have a high varroa count. Also, I'm a bit suspect on the claimed benefits of the wintergreen oil. I wish it were that easy, but I have the sense that you're being mislead. If you employ this method please try to make objective measurements, i.e., natural mite drops before treatment, during treatment, and after treatment, along with treatment dates and durations.

    Best of luck

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lewisberry, Pa, usa
    Posts
    6,080

    Default

    Charlotte,
    One quick question, so from what I read, this formula and patty use is for v-mites? This mention DWV, cleaning mites from cells, etc.

    I'll let others perhaps answer your questions and step back. I have some serious doubts about the information as outlined in the "NOTE" section. The mentioning of the wintergreen oil killing mites in the cells to the claim that shb infestation is directly related to mite infestation, among other things, has me wondering if you should seek other information sources.

    Ok astro....you type faster....

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pickens, SC, USA
    Posts
    233

    Default

    Being a new beek - I only have 2 hives and have only had those for a few months - I am interested in trying to avoid the stronger chemicals if possible.

    There is a persons name on this sheet but I did not print it out of consideration to him as he was just sharing this info with local clubs. I will ask around and see if I can find the actual source of the data

    My 24 hr mite counts have been very low... I havent done one in several weeks as it has been around 100 here almost every day and I hated to close up the bottom ventilation. I have done powdered sugar treatments on both hives twice in the last 6 weeks. Since, I will not be harvesting any honey for myself this year I wanted to go ahead and put patties (with wintergreen) on the brood area and possible a roll inside the bottom entrance?

    I agree that even to my untrained bee self a couple of the statements seem a bit to good to be true but I need to do something so I'm willing to try the formula

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Huntington, West Virginia, USA
    Posts
    438

    Default sheep minerals

    Hi, Charlotte, the difference between the pink mineral mix you wanted & the sheep mineral mix you got is that the sheep minerals have less copper in them. Otherwise, they are basically the same. Sheep don't metablolize the copper very well, so their mix has lots less of it. I feel you will be OK using it for the bees. Hope that helps! -Danno

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Hillsboro, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,672

    Default

    Off topic - but concerned for goats-

    You have to be careful with minerals that are for sheep being given to goats. Goats need a higher percentage of copper than sheep, as well as selenium (I know it is deficient in SC, don't know about NC). Only give minerals specifically developed for goats to goats.

    Okay carry on, back to the topic -

    MM

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    Posts
    5,159

    Lightbulb

    When I needed mineral salt for patties, (way back when), I used the mineral block found in the pet section at Wallyworld. I used a pedal and mortise to crush it and the vitamin C.

    Dennis Murrel suggests adding vitamin C as well as salt.

    Sorry, I lost his link.
    Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    www.myspace.com/dukewilliam

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pickens, SC, USA
    Posts
    233

    Default

    Bullseye.... why didnt I think of that Here I was stressing over what to do with 50# of pink mineral salt but I guess I could get a mineral brick and ask some muscle man to pound it !

    Actually, what I ended up purchasing that day was just "mixing salt" - regular salt that is not ground fine enough to be called food grade. I didnt buy the sheep minerals. So I guess I can provide the regular salt to my goatie girls.

    MM - you cant purchase hardly anything around here labeled for goats ! I do try to be careful about what they are offered.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pickens, SC, USA
    Posts
    233

    Default

    okay... for better or worse.. I found this source for the data

    http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/GresPates.pdf

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
    Posts
    2,574

    Default

    Sorry, still suspect. First notice that the original research was targeted for Nov. to March treatment. The horse has left the barn by that time of year, besides, you can use powered sugar (no residue at all) at that time of year very effectively to knock down mites. They go on to say that this is basically a year-round treatment regime... I guess that's OK if you like wintergreen flavored honey. They also mention that if you got lots of mites that this is not the treatment that you should use. It could be useful used as a maintenance type treatment, but with all the options available I see no real value in it.

    There are lots and lots of options for dealing with varroa. I suggest that you dig into beesource for some other options that are consistent with your beekeeping philosophy.

    Again, best of luck

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Darrington, WA, USA
    Posts
    544

    Default

    He uses the grease patties as part of a 4 step program i belive....

    http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa06.htm

    Joe
    "Slow Down and Taste the Vanilla" - My Grandma

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Darrington, WA, USA
    Posts
    544

    Default

    this might help also

    http://rnoel.50megs.com/2000/index.htm

    joe
    "Slow Down and Taste the Vanilla" - My Grandma

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pickens, SC, USA
    Posts
    233

    Default

    Thank you for the data. I already have screened bottom boards and I'm willing to use the Honey Bee Healthy but no way for the fumigation.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Willington, CT USA
    Posts
    414

    Default

    I am with Bjorn "I'm old scool on patties. Crisco and sugar".

    I will mix in some powdered Terramysin (sp) also.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads